Visual representations of female techno/house producers

anonymous techno is the best techno

doesn't she make house?

the distinction is worth making for once, here

tbh the shot of her back in slow-mo was hotter than the bath one

hmm no one bothered posting how she responded to it all herself then

http://www.factmag.com/2013/04/09/russian-dj-nina-kraviz-addresses-that-bath-scene-after-greg-wilson-and-maceo-plex-have-their-say/

nina otm, obviously

She comes off really well in that post, much better than in the video. Really, all the sex-stuff is sort of a red herring, for me it's mainly about her seeming really dumb and lazy in that video. She complains about how busy she is, but most of the time she is on the beach or in a bath or being driven around somewhere. And it's weird, since obviously she must work a hell of a lot, also between gigs, making music and dealing with the logistics of all the turing. And judging from her written response - and from the fact that she speaks a lot of languages, I think - she is probably really, really smart. It's not really the sex, as it is that the video seems to focus on that to the exclusion of everything else she does.

As a techno fan I was in a sort of tizzy about this last week...

she addresses that in the post, too

the thing with the video is why should anyone care to this extent? it's a PR video, it's not her actual work, it's pure promo, i don't necessarily expect her to come across as anything particular.

doesn't she make house?

― Tioc Norris (LocalGarda), Wednesday, April 10, 2013 3:42 AM Bookmark

When I saw her, all she played was super banging minimal (not cap-M Minimal) techno with no buildups or breakdowns or melodies and nothing that sounded remotely like her album. It was all kind of "this must be what techno sounds like to people who hate techno". :(

lex otm

yeah

i figured the sex & glamour angle had to be delivered with an awareness of prevailing genre/gender expectations. like that lingering shot of her crouching down, carefully applying and checking her makeup while someone else works the decks. something almost challenging about it: "yes, this is what i do. why, do you have a problem with it?"

http://www.factmag.com/2013/04/11/bathgate-what-the-nina-kraviz-furore-tells-us-about-sexism-in-dance-music/

That was a bad response. This is especially offtm:

If Nina Kraviz wants to dance during her DJ sets, take bubble baths on camera and discuss her appearance and sexuality in an open and honest way, then no one has the right to look down on her for doing so.

This is just libertarianism. Everyone can do everything, no one has the right to critisize.

eh, it's hardly presenting it as a universal principle. If it had said "If Nina Kraviz wants to dance during her DJ sets, take bubble baths on camera and promote the core principles of fascism, then no one has the right to look down on her for doing so", then okay, but it's about a wholesale dismissal of traditionally feminine traits.

lol frederik b, just no

yours is a terrible fucking response

i have had enough of MEN ON THE INTERNET WHO WILL NOT STFU ABOUT THEIR INALIENABLE RIGHT TO COMMENT ON ISSUES OF PRIVILEGE AND SEXISM today

sit down all of you

just sit the fuck down and learn something

every word of lauren's article = bang on

I had only heard heard music in passing and had never seen a picture of her and now I am interested in checking out more music, so there's something positive coming out of this

that article downplays the fact that nina herself talked about the myth/illusion she purposely creates, djing as performance and all that. also nina approved of wilson's article and linked to it on facebook.

i have had enough of MEN ON THE INTERNET WHO WILL NOT STFU ABOUT THEIR INALIENABLE RIGHT TO COMMENT ON ISSUES OF PRIVILEGE AND SEXISM today

have a look in the mirror.

thanks for linking the factmag piece, lex. good read.

Lol my phone is not allowing me to read any of the text at that most recent FACT link

I am having a hard time phrasing this, and I want to preface it by saying that I have no criticism of Nina Kraviz for doing this or anything else she wants in a video.

I think, however, that we live in a time when sexuality is more on display in media than ever, and yet men are also becoming increasingly aware of (or at least people are trying to make them increasingly aware of) the inapprorpriateness of certain kinds of comments about women, their sexuality, their bodies, etc. So I think a lot of men are confused by, on one hand, seeing videos where the camera lingers sensually on a female artist's body in a way that very obviously contains an element of objectification, and where that video gives the impression that it is exactly how the artist wants to present herself (which is a complicated and not necessarily correct assumption of course), and on the other hand are given the message "you shouldn't focus on women's bodies, you shouldn't comment on women's bodies, etc." Open to anyone pointing out how this post is in itself wrongheaded and oblivious to privilege, etc.

no, that's a very good point. it can be hard to square the idea that the sexual exploitation of women is a problem with the idea that women should be entirely free to present themselves in any manner they wish, even when it comes to what might resemble sexual exploitation. my solution is to simply leave the policing of women's self-presentation to somebody else.

It's only hard if you treat "women" as a monolithic group who all think the same thing.

sure, but my point was that even in trying to be feminist, progressive sorts sometimes get trapped in overly simplistic and proscriptive analyses like "sexualized image of woman = exploitative & sexist". this causes cognitive dissonance when they try to make room for self-determination.

who is "they"

"progressive sorts"

not to appropriate it, but I feel like Tim's thoughts from before are still pretty great (and he mentioned Nina Kraviz, particularly):

Not surprisingly, this practice of female producers using their bodies as a canvas can sometimes lead to these ultra-refined image of image of image of woman depictions - the way that Cassy and Nina Kraviz appear on their album covers it's like it's not even them, but a kind of hyper-abstracted depiction of the feeling-woman that just happens to use their own body (in other senses of course these two photos are very different from one another). But (in contrast to the effect when men use photos of women in this way) I think it's often expressive of this kind of double-role that female producers can inhabit, and actually works to create a sense of commonality with the audience; that sense that they already dancing beside us. This is probably also at least part of the motivation for some of the more mystical/spiritual fetishes that some people have for female producers; the imagined warmth of their work (vis a vis comparable male artists) grounded in the notion that their bodies are intricately connected in with the brain/machine loop of the creative process.

"progressive sorts"

eh, maybe i'm expressing too much sympathy for the enemy in saying i can say why the integration of these ideas gives some people trouble. i dunno, it reminds me of the turmoil that accompanied the shift between second and third wave feminism, but maybe it's just dorks being dorks.

"progressive sorts" "they" "some people"

jesus christ we are discussing this issue. "some people" is _us_

stop trying to weed yourself out of a well-meaning group

uh, i was responding to something hurting said:

so I think a lot of men are confused by, on one hand, seeing videos where the camera lingers sensually on a female artist's body in a way that very obviously contains an element of objectification, and where that video gives the impression that it is exactly how the artist wants to present herself (which is a complicated and not necessarily correct assumption of course), and on the other hand are given the message "you shouldn't focus on women's bodies, you shouldn't comment on women's bodies, etc."

and i thought, "yeah, otm, i suspect that does confuse a lot of people." hell, i've known otherwise generally well-meaning guys complain about the seeming paradox. so i agreed, and elaborated a bit (perhaps clumsily, and if so, i apologize).

tbf there are plenty of things that are not confusing, like "don't talk at work with your co-workers about how hot your female co-worker is" "don't make comments to a woman about her looks in really any setting other than one where it's normal to make an overture to someone for a number/date/whatever, and even there tread carefully," "don't be the president and say in a speech that an Attorney General is "good-looking." These things are or should be no-brainers. What is less clear is when a female artist presents herself in a very sexual way how you're supposed to talk about it and what lines you shouldn't cross. And again, some of these lines are obvious too, like you don't "call a woman out" for the fact that she presents her sexuality in a video, as though that were somehow corrupt. But there's still this attractive woman in front of you making her physical attractiveness a big part of her performance, and it's hard to know how to talk about it, like I feel super hemmy and hawy even writing this.

just be a bit embarrassed all the time

eh, it's hardly presenting it as a universal principle. If it had said "If Nina Kraviz wants to dance during her DJ sets, take bubble baths on camera and promote the core principles of fascism, then no one has the right to look down on her for doing so", then okay, but it's about a wholesale dismissal of traditionally feminine traits.

― a similar stunt failed to work with a cow (Merdeyeux), 11. april 2013 15:28 (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

So if I claimed that talking shit about women was a typically masciline trait - and there are loads of empirical evidence to back this up - then it would be okay?

Look, I'm all for Nina Kraviz, I think she seems like a cool, intelligent person, all in all. And I'm not saying she shouldn't be allowed to do what she wants to do. But I think she comes off as shallow and vapid in that video - and I assume it's mainly due to the editing, as she seemed much more intelligent in her own response - and I don't think I'm a misogynist for saying that, even though it might seem like I'm 'looking down on her'

i think she mostly looks like she's having a good time

Yeah, but she is also constantly complaining about how tough her life is...

So if I claimed that talking shit about women was a typically masciline trait - and there are loads of empirical evidence to back this up - then it would be okay?

sounds pretty reasonable tbh. but that aside, i don't see why you honed in on that sentence, why you would think that its message - that dancing, having a bath, and talking about your sexuality aren't negative things - is a disastrous step into moral relativism. i suppose i don't know what point you were making?

I feel that she has created a sexually-charged persona and while I haven't evaluated her music on this, I kind of find that enticing

^^ don't think this is particularly sexist but implies I find her attractive?

I mean, there is a wide range of commentary that is pretty ok before you get into really messed up comments like "whoa I'd hit it"

had to stop myself earlier from making a monolith joke

for the record, though, I was having a pretty silly conversation with a friend where he was talking about wanting to get all over some male musician (which was mostly ok), and we were watching an all woman-band (cool), and this somehow translated (several beers later) into me sticking my foot way down my throat in some color commentary about my own impulses I cannot fucking believe I made via text message, so I am most definitely prone to stating stupid ideas re: artists and sexual attractiveness

artists: some of them are hott

ok, I am actually watching this RA video and giggling because it really does have all the DJ flying around cliches and it's silly as hell

I mean, I love going to the types of events and clubs shown but outside of that context the little dance moves or talking about how uplifting it is just always seems so awkward or silly. Like British movies of the 90s/early 00s with characters delivering monologues to the camera about how intense the experience of raving or clubbing is.

Also, we almost need a thread on how fucking nice that hotel room looked and how sweet that bathtub was. designerspotter me is trying to figure out what kind of fixtures those were

i don't see why you honed in on that sentence, why you would think that its message - that dancing, having a bath, and talking about your sexuality aren't negative things - is a disastrous step into moral relativism. i suppose i don't know what point you were making?

― a similar stunt failed to work with a cow (Merdeyeux), 12. april 2013 02:36 (16 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Well, I should probably have said that there are two things wrong with the sentence. First, it's misrepresenting what is in the video. Specifically, saying that Nina Kraviz speaks in an 'open and honest way' about herself is quite... In the scene in the bathtub she is spouting platitudes about male djs and their one night stands. It's honestly quite dumb. And there are loads of other things about the video: The way she is never shown to work, the way she is always being taken around to where she is supposed to be, that she talks about listening a lot to her father. So I think the sentence is distorting the thing people complain about. And then, after having made that distortion, she is trying to shot down the discussion by saying that 'no one has the right to look down on her.' Like, if she wrote that her opponents were idiots, that would be okay, that would be a discussion. But she is saying that we aren't allowed to discuss it, right after she made several wrong statements. It's just bad.

Fundamentally, I don't think it's good to say that she can't be critisized because she is just 'being woman'. I mean, in dubstep 'fratboy' is used as a pejorative all the time, and fratboys are quite clearly a typical way of 'being man', right? It's quite close to that old thing, where women are natural while men are reflective. Which is probably one of the main factors behind the idea that men are better at thoughtful pursuits, such as being artists...

just be a bit embarrassed all the time

― ogmor, Thursday, April 11, 2013 7:35 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

don't worry, got that covered

women act all fratty to dubstep, too. or sorority-ish, I have no idea

I mean, it doesn't take a penis to drink from a beer bong

And it doesn't take a vagina to take a bubble bath...

no one ever said it did!