Fleetwood Mac: Classic or Dud

btw much of Nicks' solo work through 1985 and intermittently thereafter doesn't need Buckingham, although we can credit him for strengthening self-confidence and songwriting chops.

"Rumours" was I think the only time the band was truly operating "as one." Ironically. But "Tusk" is basically half Lindsey on his own, half Lindsey arranging, polishing, deconstructing the others. Save Christine, who pretty much sounds like herself. (Is she the only band member who ever co-wrote with Lindsey?) "Mirage" really sounds like Lindsey let loose with proto digital tools, perhaps a concession to lure him back to the band. I imagine he had even more control on "Tango," when he really didn't want to be involved at all. Then "Say You Will" is pretty much the Lindsey show again. The other guys in the band are what make the records sound so great, of course, tempering his high strung tendencies.

Btw, I agree Nicks did not need Bucky in the '80s, which is also ironic, given she was such a mess.

The degree to which Buckingham deserves songwriting credit on Nicks' songs will never get resolved -- it's a tango in the night.

I can't wait for the definitive account of the Tango sessions, about which we know so little.

Well, I mean, she's only got three songs on there, and one was a co-write with Sandy Stewart, who wrote the music.

Huh, she (Sandy) recorded a duet with Nile Rodgers for the "White Nights" soundtrack! "This is Your Day."

Oh, you mean all her Mac songs? Yeah, well, talk about "he couldn't have come up with a single song on rumors on his own." Only apply it to all the Nicks Mac songs. But then, they wouldn't be what they are without her formative contributions, melodies, lyrics, etc.

and co-wrote "If Anyone Falls" and "Nightbird."

A lot of folks have called bullshit on her memoir, which may explain why it gained so little traction. At the least it sounds pretty par for the course for any relationship built around drugs.

Sorry if I'm being a broken record but I feel like we've been over this a few times now. This is like the second or third time you have posted a justification for the fact that Lindsey hit women -- drugs, the women were crazy, he's an artist who was in a "dark place," it was the 70s and 80s.

I like his music too, but I honestly don't think there's any doubting that the guy has a pattern of physically abusing women that was reprehensible.

What gives?

Josh can get Lindsay to change, you'll see

Hey, I'm trying my best!

If you read the Amazon comments, there's actually an exchange between Harris and Jeremy Spencer where he accuses her of making stuff up. So there's that. Really, though, I don't know about "a pattern of physically abusing women." Is that right? Has Anne Heche mentioned it? Has Stevie mentioned it? I don't recall seeing such an accusation anywhere but in Harris's salacious tell-all. Which doesn't make it not true! But there's are too many unfounded accusations and too much cocaine involved in this tangled tale to take anyone's sole voice as gospel.

jeremy spencer wouldn't be my first stop for reliable witnesses tbqh

Caillat talks about it in his book -- it may actually be Carol Ann. He was totally freaked out by it and basically realized Buck was a terrible person as a result.

There are other stories as well relating to Stevie.

If your point about coke is related to memory, then that doesn't really hold water because I don't think there's much doubt that hitting/choking women (and guys too IIRC) is a well-documented "thing" for him.

If its "hey, people do crazy things when they're fucked up" or "he just had an anger management problem" -- give me a break.

And if it's "not every woman he's been with has written a tell-all book about his physical abuse," then you obviously don't know much about it -- because the whole point is that women DON'T talk about it. Not enough anyway. They stick with abusive guys long after they should for a variety of reasons -- almost all really sad and really common.

Part of the reason I'm just not giving in here is that I spent today reading all these people justifying Mike Rice, the coach of Rutgers, berating his players and throwing balls at their heads as "old school" and "character building."

It's neither. There's nothing justifiable about abuse -- not the era where it was tolerated, nothing.

If Lindsey has gotten help and gotten this under control, great. But it doesn't make him any different than Ike Taylor or Chris Brown.

Picturing Taylor Swift throwing a b-ball at Ed Sheeran in a mixing desk rage. Thanking you.

I'm not trying to convince you. xpost There is no excuse to hit or abuse anyone, especially not your sig. other. I would not be surprised that Buckingham was an emotionally abusive person, prone to screaming, fits, maybe even violence. But so far the only source, anywhere - I read Caillat's book, and don't remember him going into this in much detail - that really goes into is the Harris book, which, again, does not make it untrue. But the difference between Buckingham and Rice, Brown, Ike et al. is that the violence of the latter crew has been well-documented. Buckingham is a massively public figure with massively public relationships, from a band famous above all else for its emotional distress and discussing it, at length, through song and interviews and, yes, tell-alls and docs. It would take a hundred people turning their backs or covering up for him to keep this physically abusive side of him a secret for decades, though I admit it's possible! It's a scummy business. I've read enough of these tell alls, from Motley Crue to Peter Criss to Zevon to whomever to believe they're likely all terrible people prone to far worse than what actually gets reported.

But so far the only source, anywhere - I read Caillat's book, and don't remember him going into this in much detail - that really goes into is the Harris book

Since I have the Caillat book on Kindle, allow me to refresh your memory:

Suddenly, Lindsey barged through the front door from the street and went directly into the studio. A few minutes later, Richard and Christina came in the back door, having parked behind the studio. They both walked past Lindsey without saying a word and went directly into the control room. Christina was white and trembling. There were no jokes coming from Richard, either. “I’ll go talk to him,” Richard said to Christina.

He walked out of the control room and closed the door. “What happened?” I asked Christina, who had begun to cry hysterically. “I don’t know. I think it’s over. And what’s worse is that Lindsey punched me in the face. Then he started yelling all this crazy stuff about how he couldn’t take it, and I had to leave.” Richard came in and told Christina that Lindsey was sorry, that he didn’t know what had happened, but he did want her to leave.

I called a cab for Christina, and that was it. She was gone. I really thought Christina and Lindsey had been great together. I’ll never forget how she trembled after Lindsey attacked her. Her face had red marks on it where he had hit her. Lindsey always seemed to be wound a little too tight, but I hadn’t expected that he would get physical with a woman. I felt sick, as if the magic had been destroyed.

Little did I know that I would also experience his physical rage in the near future. Richard was upset, too. He had been at the house at the time and had seen the whole thing. “What are you doing, Lindsey? Are you fucking crazy?” he demanded when we were alone with Lindsey. “You don’t do that to people!” “I know. You’re right,” Lindsey said. “I don’t know why she got me that mad.”

“Let’s get out of here,” Richard said. Lindsey and I agreed. It was Saturday, and we decided to take a break until Monday at noon.

...

The guys were getting along really well at this point, but I kept thinking about what Lindsey had done to Christina a couple days before. I was fighting a battle, admiring his musical genius and being disgusted by his personal behavior. I guess I should have been prepared for his violent streak against Christina by his actions in the past, but time would reveal the real Lindsey to me soon enough. I’d had the weekend to think about Lindsey’s attack against Christina. Talking to Cheryl had helped. She felt that it was good that Christina was gone, or it probably would have gotten worse. I wondered whether Lindsey had ever physically hurt Stevie.

I didn’t know if he had in the past, but I would see him kick her in the butt onstage during the Tusk tour three years later.

And I'm not even including the part where Lindsey chokes Caillat for erasing a track he asked him to tape over

Not a lot of shades of grey here, Josh.

Yeah, sounds like a dick, a massively enabled dick working in a world of fellow massively enabled and enabling dicks. It's just a shame that this stuff stays silent for decades until it's time for someone to write a book.

I don't know, but is there a distinction to be made between a person prone to violent outbursts and someone with a specific pattern of physically abusing women? He sounds like an abusive person, period.

I don't know, but is there a distinction to be made between a person prone to violent outbursts and someone with a specific pattern of physically abusing women? He sounds like an abusive person, period.

― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, April 4, 2013 3:27 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i don't know what incredibly fine hair you are trying to split here.

I'm not! But wife/girlfriend beater is the absolute bottom, as far as distinctions go. There are a host of horrible people in music and stuff who are not held in nearly as ill esteem as others who beat or otherwise abuse women.

I guess I'm just trying to gauge how irredeemable he is, or these belated revelations make him. The closest analogy I can think of is a pro athlete. If an athlete is caught doing drugs, that's one thing. If an athlete is caught using steroids, that's as bad as it gets, and that will be an asterisk that follows him around for the rest of his life.

does it matter whether he's irredeemable? I mean, he's an irredeemable asshole who made fantastic music.

It matters a little to me, yeah, especially since he seems to have made a conscious effort to chill out and make himself better. Operative word being "seems," I guess. As opposed to the usual unrepentant suspects.

I wondered whether Lindsey had ever physically hurt Stevie.

well there was this:

"I was crying when we took that picture. And Lindsey was mad at me. He said, 'You know, you're just being a child. This is art.' And I'm going, 'This is not *art*. This is me taking a nude photograph with you, and I don't dig it.'"

For a bunch of sixty-year olds they sure can put on a good show! I seriously feared Lindsey was gonna have a heart attack after "I'm So Afraid." They have a new song called "Sad Angel" and it's gonna be a huge hit. Stevie was singing like an angel, and they all looked like they were having the time of their lives up there. Rock!

I guess I'm just trying to gauge how irredeemable he is, or these belated revelations make him. The closest analogy I can think of is a pro athlete. If an athlete is caught doing drugs, that's one thing. If an athlete is caught using steroids, that's as bad as it gets, and that will be an asterisk that follows him around for the rest of his life.

― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, April 4, 2013 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it's much more like when an athlete beats his wife.

xp that's nice to hear, Mr. Snrub. I 've got tix to see them soon, and am a tad nervous (first time seeing them ... emotionally invested in the music ... expectations yadda yadda...)

classic

http://www.bigozine2.com/TRKSB/FMcolumbus/FMcolumbus104.mp3
[live debut of that new song]

http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/music/midnight-sun-blog/bal-fleetwood-mac-at-verizon-center-review,0,4842455.story
Nice review of the Baltimore gig from Lexie Mountain.

Technically, that's really the Baltimore Sun review of a show in Washington DC at the Verizon Center. Here's the W. Post freelancer's take:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/music/fleetwood-mac-relives-rumours-as-crowd-revels-in-hits-at-verizon-center/2013/04/10/118044a0-a1e5-11e2-9c03-6952ff305f35_story.html

This is such a weird, weirdly wrong graf:

The night wasn’t only about “Rumours.” Drummer Mick Fleetwood, 65, who lived in the D.C. area in the 1990s while running a nightclub named Fleetwood’s in Alexandria, got to shine during “Not That Funny” and “Tusk,” both cuts from a 1979 percussion-heavy double LP also called “Tusk” that served as a sort of musical equivalent of “Heaven’s Gate.” The band delivered the collection so over budget (it was labeled the costliest record ever made) that the album was considered a flop before it hit the bins. But, as Buckingham boasted while introducing the “Tusk” portion of the set, time has been kind. The record ended up selling in the multi-platinum range and has been embraced in more recent decades by scads of indie-rock bands, who have mined edginess from perhaps the most middle-of-the-road band in rock annals. Two examples: The Decemberists covered “Think About Me,” and Camper Van Beethoven covered the entire two-record set.

I had never heard the Peter Green stuff....it's awesome! What should I go for after Best Of...which is all I've heard? Thanks.

The Best Of actually does a pretty good job, imo. Though Green is a great player, so maybe some live stuff?

Mick Fleetwood, 65, who lived in the D.C. area in the 1990s while running a nightclub named Fleetwood’s in Alexandria

mad i didn't know this (but i guess i wasn't old enough to go at the time anyway)

Drove down from Boston to see FM at Mohegan Sun tonight. I have a lot of thoughts, but I'm quite tired so I'll keep it short:

They are really into it.

Mick Fleetwood, 65, who lived in the D.C. area in the 1990s while running a nightclub named Fleetwood’s in Alexandria

anyone know what this club was like?

i've never been there but i know it was awesome

So when is that new EP coming out?

has this been mentioned re: christine?

‘If they wanted me to, I might pop back on stage when they’re in London,’ she says, gracing me with a rare interview, ‘just to do a little duet or something like that.’

:O http://metro.co.uk/2013/04/04/fleetwood-mac-the-resurgent-1970s-icons-head-out-on-a-new-world-tour-3581866/

So when is that new EP coming out?

― licorice oratorio (baaderonixx), Wednesday, April 24, 2013 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This week, possibly tomorrow, I heard.

Recent performance of one of the new songs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CITTkWQyf4g

EP's out!

where? iTunes?

Yep. Two Buckingham, one Nicks.

Buckingham-Nicks musical collab is approx. 45 yrs old now. So is Fleetwood-McVie.

Just thought I'd point that out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzZCoe38_hM

That exchange may be the all-time greatest moment from Mighty Boosh

That and the 'Gary Numan vs. Jazz-Funk' exchange.

aaah i love that Tusk bit

A terrific recent Nicks interview. Has she ever sounded this perceptive and healthy? Note how she and a fan break down thinking of each other's moms.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXg2kZV8-6s

Ooh, will watch asap

on record store day a woman picked up tusk and asked the guy she was with if it was good and he said, in an authoritative tone, "it's a late work, but i think some people consider it to be good." some people.

someone introduce lindsey to a graphic designer pls