amanda palmer's open poem to jonathan chait (and other crimes)

starry-eyed ukelele prophet: artists should subsist on a diet of love and hugs and togetherness and beggary of gifts!
moneybags owner-operator: heh sounds good to me

thing is, as she says, her model of constant emotional labor as a cut-around for atrophied funding flows to tangible labor probably IS the future of music

i guess the issue is that should any and all labor that anyone does be compensated? like, should everyone who records an album be guaranteed a payment of $100? $1000?

This is not the issue at all. The issue is "is it okay to look askance at the motives of someone who sets a $100K budget for an artistic project who, when they raise $1.2 million, turns around and says 'now I need free musicians to play this on tour'?"

the thing is, though, she is not a charity, she is not a government agency, she is a person, and if she makes a lot of money, she can just keep it and be rich. I mean, c'mon DJP, do you give all your excess income to the needy and deserving? Maybe you just buy a nice new car because you have every right to do so.

wtf

DJP doesn't propose that the future of human society is we all give him money.

'well now…'

it's more wtf how people are holding her to a higher standard than other successful artists

How many other successful artists explicitly send out appeals for professional-level musicians to play for the for free?

i don't think any of this discussion actually even addresses her as an artist!

i think her music is super lame

^^ there u go

It seems like she takes an unfair amount of flak for doing these things merely because she is really annoying.

i'd love to read something comparing her to lil b

I'm only being half facetious. I think the unpaid musician thing, while NAGL, was really overblown. But I also just find her really corny and irritating and self-aggrandizing.

at any rate, I've already stated why I dislike her; everything sketchy thing she does in service of self-promotion or brand advancement for her adoring public is just confirmation of shitty behavior I knew about from way before her profile became "Kickstarter messiah"

xxp - charitable concerts and benefits?

xp I think that's about right. She's written some really good songs imo but her schtick can be very irritating.

i never said she had good songs

imo

the issue of what is fair compensation for musicians and artists is something I think a lot about - mainly because of what I do for a living - and I don't want to sound glib or overly "that's just the way it is". It is a complex issue, because a lot of people like playing music for "fun" or "for their mental health" - but it does make for a fucked up economy, and artistic labor is viewed differently than that of a lawyer or a doctor.

she was in a band with a very good drummer (shewroteallthesongs).

the thing that bothers me is she's so manipulative of the people that love her the most. she seems like one of those ppl that's incapable of really empathizing with anyone as a person, you're just an extra in the grand movie of her life. she reminds me of ppl i really hate in real life. to me, people like that are the lowest of people.

also she invokes DIY and to me that belongs in a tradition of US punk and underground music that made me, as a person, feel like i was part of a community and there wasn't this huge separation between the artist and the audience. there were times when people (not even famous people necessarily just local bands that i loved and admired) would talk to me or give me encouragement and that meant more than the world to me.

one time, we were doing this benefit show and grant hart was also on the bill, we had worked up "don't want to know if you are lonely" and i screwed up my confidence (i was so nervous) and went to talk to grant. i said hey were were going to do your song and maybe since you're here would you want to do it with us? and grant, for how messed up he's supposed to me, was really gracious and said "sure, why not?" so he came up and did that song with my band and we were NOBODIES....it was a thrill of a lifetime. i've had similar interactions with people in shellac and US maple and other bands even less famous that were the same. they were just people and didn't seem to think that i was just a "fan" they treated me like a person, even if it was just a conversation about music we liked.

with palmer, selling $1000 passes to get "hug" from her or selling off her own literal garbage like empty wine bottles to the highest bidder, seems ugly beyond measure to me, and really disgusting when you consider that many of those people who would agree to do that in the first place probably feel really alone and for whatever reason have put a lot of personal stock in her and her music. and she can't even once treat them as more than a commodity, something to be harvested.

this is fundamentally different to me, both because of what she's selling which is really just what should be normal human interaction, and how she places it in the contest of the history of DIY.

for how narcissistic, for example, madonna or lady gaga or morrissey or mick jagger may be, and even how greedy they are, at the end of the day they only interact with you in terms of giving you something for your money -- an album you love or putting on a show. and the in the case of madonna or gaga or the stones, i think they really do put a lot of effort and thought into giving the audience their money's worth when you go to see them. they also don't pretend that it's more than that. (maybe gaga does a bit but still).

there was even a video recently where Pink stopped a show because a little girl was crying because 2 women were fighting and she gave the girl a rice crispie bar and a teddy bear that had been placed onstage....even in this huge enormous arena spectacle that seemed like Pink acting like a human being to the audience, i know that's a small thing but still it matters.

with palmer there just seems like this total lack of empathy for anyone or anything that isn't her, or can't be useful for her.

http://youtu.be/h57XWrFNGs8

skip to 5:10

xp tangent, but there seems to be a thing now with popstars more explicitly selling that sense of community or friendship that fans feel; lady gaga, bieber, minaj, lil b, maybe even odd future in their way...

xpost - what the fuck are ppl applauding that for?

Fan clubs have existed since the dawn of celebrity

http://youtu.be/h57XWrFNGs8

skip to 5:10

'my whole life is this struggle to figure out what's too exhibitionisty'

losing that struggle

The blatant monetizing of fandom is such a huge thing now (and no, DJP, it's not fanclub business as usual) and I think Palmer at least seems sincere about it (as does Gaga, not so much Bieber). As far as I can tell she does give back in many ways. There was a girl who once gave her some fan art so Palmer paid her to design a Dresden Dolls poster and off the back of that she got more work and is now making a living as an artist. That strikes me as pretty decent. It's not just take take take and I don't believe her fans are vulnerable or gullible enough to put up with her in great numbers if that's all it was.

every person that bought an empty wine bottle out of amanda palmer's recycling is now self-employed as an artist

good long post matt

As far as the sexism charges, I don't necessarily agree. Gene Simmons has long been called a whore by a great many people for actually helping to pioneer the douchbaggery that Palmer acts entitled to, for example.

Good post ums

As I said upthread, it is mind-bogglingly hilarious to me that Amanda Palmer was able to sell TWO empty wine bottles for more money apiece than she was able to sell autographed copies of her albums.

i guess you can like put a candle in a wine bottle so it's more useful than one of her albums

i think it's telling that people who are musical artists/have worked or performed tend to be far more critical of AP than casual listeners are.

lol forks

people who tend to be more critical of AP:

- are musical artists; or
- have performed; or
- have worked

i mean i wouldn't even suggest to call myself an artist but making music has been a big part of my life etc, but there was never a thought that it might make money or anything

Drinking wine has been a big part of my life etc, but there was never a thought that it might make money or anything

with palmer there just seems like this total lack of empathy for anyone or anything that isn't her, or can't be useful for her.

otm. This is my main beef w her. The media kerfuffle over the unpaid musicians tour led me to read her blog posts so i could see HER side of the argument, and all I found was a hall of mirrors that only reflected her. All content not written by her fans was either self-praise, self-victimization, or Grand Concepts For The Future that had all the depth and insight of directions for a homework assignment. It makes me think of artsy intellectuals that spend so much time going on and on about what amazing ideas they come up with, far more time than they spend on actually working on stuff. The most important work is in constructing a persona, harnessing the audience it attracts, and feeding that back into the persona. A conceptual performance art bubble. Not substance to it aside from "AP is a brilliant artist".

even though I know what thread this is etc and I think I myself have used the AP abbreviation, every now and then I get a flash of "leave Adrian Peterson alone"

Drinking wine has been a big part of my life etc, but there was never a thought that it might make money or anything

― how's life, Thursday, March 21, 2013 2:44 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol i have a TED Talk you should watch

I wonder how many homeless people asked AP Kickstarter funders for money and were turned down. Now she gets paid to give a talk at a tech conference about how "All you have to do is ask for money!". And some guy is freezing his ass off on the streets somewhere trying that exact same thing in order to scrape enough money to get a bottle of Red Rooster 21.

people who tend to be more critical of AP:
- are musical artists; or
- have performed; or
- have worked
― Darth Icky (DJP)

typo on my part, was meant to read "people who are musical artists/have worked industry or performed professionally"

I don't believe her fans are vulnerable or gullible enough to put up with her in great numbers if that's all it was.

They strike me as being vulnerable people, though.

I got that it was a typo, I just thought it was funny

"adrian peterson's open letter to robert smith" would actually sort of work

http://brainerddispatch.com/images/121400/spt_smithLR.jpg

I had a bunch of AP stans referring to my current project as a quote-unquote magazine which I think says a lot about their opinions on independent culture that hasn't been shoved down their throat by TED talks and toxic narcissism

xp: lol I was thinking exactly that

well on the internet everyone is welcome to their quote-unquote opinion, eh.

this is indicative of a larger attitude imo