Hilary Duff: Joy for pre-teens, not just Humbert Humbert

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hey why is there a separate hip-hop thread when everyone knows that's not real music anyway lolol. that's like creepy white negro shit huh?

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:15 (nineteen years ago)

8,004,327 posts and I still don't know if I should get the new Hilary. But I want to thank the Miranda Lambert claque for boosting the album of the year.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:16 (nineteen years ago)

Is anyone on this thread trying to understand the teenpop thread posters? Like, I haven't seen the actual thread quoted once, most of the arguments coming from "what's wrong with the teenpop thread" are coming from knee-jerky comments in THIS discussion, e.g. "TVOTR is a million times suckier than Hilary Duff, who is a goddess and better than Bob Dylan."

xpost (ha, pedophilia's nuthin, if you really want me to get defensive, just mention AF...think I overreacted upthread tho so sorry bout that. FWIW, that post was about me remembering why I liked them in the first place -- and still do -- and comparing that reaction to what (I thought) they were doing on their new album. And I know I'm right, so there's no reason to argue further on this point.)

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:17 (nineteen years ago)

New Hilary's great! Two or three dull tracks (but not bad), try "Gypsy Woman" for wtfness, "Dignity" for dance-pop goodness, and "Happy" for freestyle-inflected dance-pop goodness, then go from there.

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:18 (nineteen years ago)

And "Outside of Me" for P!nk-penned half-dance half-confessional (Hilary gap-bridger) goodness.

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:19 (nineteen years ago)

every time I start to see someone's point, they rep for something like "Beat Of My Heart," which is one of the worst songs I've ever heard. although it's kind of fun to sing along with the horrible "AWAAY AWAAAAY" part.

― Alex in Baltimore, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:20 (nineteen years ago)

i dig "with love". i haven't heard it on the dancey/top40 station here yet, but i could definitely hear it on there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhgLoanz1b4

― scott seward, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:21 (nineteen years ago)

even jess might like "with love"!

― scott seward, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:21 (nineteen years ago)

ew Hilary's great! Two or three dull tracks (but not bad), try "Gypsy Woman" for wtfness,

not Crystal Waters...

thanks, dabug and scott!

"With Love" is ok, but it's got a Gwen Stefani "Crash" vibe to it.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:23 (nineteen years ago)

that song reminds me of the mall.

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:24 (nineteen years ago)

No, much more wtf than Crystal Waters (tho maybe she out-wtf's it in her own special way)...the gypsy is "bringing down the family name"!!! WTF cartoon racism!!

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:25 (nineteen years ago)

"She can swallow knives/ She can swallow lives/ Golden black stare/ But the night of your demise"!!!! Also, bookended with a totally out of context Churchill quote: "The battle of France is over" w/ Hilary comment.

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:26 (nineteen years ago)

I guess my issue is often that the songs/singers being talked about just sound really feeble to me, no "pop transcendence" or big hooks or much of anything. I understand why labels sign and market teenage singers, but unless they can sing better than "good for a 15-year-old" or whatever, I'm usually not interested. Same reason I'm happy that no under 18 contestants on American Idol go the distance, unless they've clearly got professional-level skills like Jordin Sparks.

― Alex in Baltimore, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:26 (nineteen years ago)

which brings us back to Hilary Duff being Sanjaya Skeletor

― Alex in Baltimore, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:27 (nineteen years ago)

Every time someone wants hooks, I refer them to that Lester Bangs essay...

Even better than a big hook, "Girlfriend"'s got personality. It's also the cleverest Stones rip I've heard in years.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:28 (nineteen years ago)

yeah, with the talk about good voices in this genre, i just think jeez, i REALLY saw a good singer when i saw lavender diamond play the other day. always comin' back to indie as the pwnage!

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:28 (nineteen years ago)

which bangs essay are you talking about alfred?

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:29 (nineteen years ago)

("Beat of My Heart" does what, say, "Mr. Brightside" wants but doesn't have the guts to do -- economically pares the lyrics down to four to six manageable words plus a smattering of simple verses, delivers the hook with a sledgehammer -- which Killers are doing, too, but they're like the people at the "ring the bell" carnival game who act like they don't REALLY care to hide the fact that THEY CAN'T RING THE BELL. Hilary doesn't worry so much about the narrative, though there's some strange conflict happening...if she's listening to her heartbeat, learning to dance, up from her down, etc., why is the same beat also "tearing them apart"? What the hell does "away away" mean? Is she doomed?)

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:30 (nineteen years ago)

unless they've clearly got professional-level skills like Jordin Sparks

I like Jordin too, but she could use some Autotune.

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:30 (nineteen years ago)

Alfred: much cleverer and maybe better (direct) Stones rip is Fefe Dobson's (unreleased) "Get You Off." "Hey! Hey! You! You! Get off of my baaaaaack..." preceded by "I'll do anything to get you off! To get you OFF MY BACK!"

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:32 (nineteen years ago)

which bangs essay are you talking about alfred?

The one about his ambivalence towards Kim Carnes' "Bette Davis Eyes."

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:32 (nineteen years ago)

Hilary doesn't worry so much about the narrative, though there's some strange conflict happening...if she's listening to her heartbeat, learning to dance, up from her down, etc., why is the same beat also "tearing them apart"? What the hell does "away away" mean? Is she doomed?

see, this is kind of what I've been talking about, these kinds of enthusiastic attempts to pin down the logic in a boring heart/start/apart rhyme scheme, painting the lack of narrative or any sense at all as an asset. I guess this is a good example of how the teenpop thread tends to exert a lot of evergy asking questions with very simple or at least not particularly interesting answers.

― Alex in Baltimore, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:37 (nineteen years ago)

ugh, evergy=energy

― Alex in Baltimore, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:38 (nineteen years ago)

yeah alex otm, i just feel like saying 'you know dudes, sometimes an apple is just an apple' about a lot of this stuff

― deej, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:40 (nineteen years ago)

(I threw in "is she doomed" especially for this thread, it was like a cherry on top.)

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:41 (nineteen years ago)

(not an apple on top)

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:41 (nineteen years ago)

My point, though, is that "Beat of My Heart" (like "Gypsy Woman") is actually quite ILLOGICAL. There's no reason they had to rhyme "heart" with "apart." "The beat of my heart (etc.)/ We never will part"...so there IS conflict, legitimately, just as there's conflict in "Yer pushin' too hard on meeeeeee," which is a simple lyric. "Now I'm gonna be twenty-two/ I say oh my and boo hoo" = one of the best lyrics EVER WRITTEN. Try to pin the logic down in the boring rhyme scheme and you might be writing excellent music criticism (Lester Bangs, for instance).

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:43 (nineteen years ago)

"Beat of My Heart" does what, say, "Mr. Brightside" wants but doesn't have the guts to do

OK, funny, because I just listened to "Beat of My Heart" and I kept thinking "this sort of sounds like 'Mr. Brightside' but defanged." The song's not horrible, but I don't hear a whole lot of character in Hilary's voice. I mean, Brandon Flowers can sound kind of blank sometimes, too, but on "Mr. Brightside" I hear this self-loathing panic in his voice. Plus, there's the clever part where you think he's going to say "dick" but he doesn't. The best part in "Beat of My Heart" is that little guitar figure in the "awaaay awaaay" part, but I find the guitar on "Mr. Brightside" to be more interesting throughout, from the spidery arpeggios of the verse to the sharp, jutting lines in the chorus.

― jaymc, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:44 (nineteen years ago)

he wasn't ambivalent, alfred. he said he hated it.

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:44 (nineteen years ago)

"Duff’s decision to focus on the ecstasy of dance-pop and pop-rock force you to deal with a rather queasy issue: her inability to sound ecstatic...The yearning and desire in her lyrics feel mandatory rather than inspired."

miccio wrote that two years ago, and i've yet to hear anything that makes me feel otherwise.

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:45 (nineteen years ago)

thinking gives you wrinkles

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:45 (nineteen years ago)

And how about when the lyrics are complex and heartbreaking? Ashlee: "Maybe you don't love me like I love you, baby, because the broken in you doesn't make me run." Also a source of excellent criticism (by Tim F last year).

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:46 (nineteen years ago)

the "mandatory" thing is what bangs is talking about in that column or whatever it was.

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:46 (nineteen years ago)

thinking gives you wrinkles

-- Eppy, Tuesday, May 15, 2007 12:45 PM (1 minute ago)

miccio used to say this a lot too

― deej, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:47 (nineteen years ago)

See, but now we're actually arguing on the teenpop thread's terms. You're (implicitly) arguing for why the teenpop thread is a good thing, because Miccio could just has easily have argued that point (and dealt with people arguing something different) and it would have only enriched the conversation. (As far as taste goes, I really love androids, and Hilary's like the perfect android with a couple of weird glitches in it. Very endearing.)

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:48 (nineteen years ago)

we all love the simpsons, yes

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:48 (nineteen years ago)

i think it's not so much "her inability to feel ecstatic" so much as the fact that that music simply makes no real efforts to actually approach genuine ecstasy.

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:49 (nineteen years ago)

(And the reason I love androids is because my insulin pump makes me feel PART MACHINE myself, so I can almost empathize with someone like Hilary. Or Nick Jonas, who is an android...with an insulin pump!!)

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:49 (nineteen years ago)

or i could say "it's a bunch of phony bullshit"

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:49 (nineteen years ago)

No, Ashlee's NOT an android. See Rolling Teenpop 2006 for about fifty thousand examples.

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:50 (nineteen years ago)

i have no problem with forced ecstasy either, i should point out. i just like it when it's constructed in such a way that it doesn't foreground the obligation aspect in either songwriting or production.

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:50 (nineteen years ago)

nothing is more forced ecstatic than trance or happy hardcore, and yet neither of them feel like the producer and/or songwriter and/or singer would rather be playing xbox or doing their toenails.

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:51 (nineteen years ago)

he wasn't ambivalent, alfred. he said he hated it.

He hated the song, was ambivalent about what it portended. Whatever.

see, this is kind of what I've been talking about, these kinds of enthusiastic attempts to pin down the logic in a boring heart/start/apart rhyme scheme, painting the lack of narrative or any sense at all as an asset. I guess this is a good example of how the teenpop thread tends to exert a lot of evergy asking questions with very simple or at least not particularly interesting answers

We're going 'round the mulberry bush here. Isn't this what critics do, like, ALL THE TIME? Like, I'm trying to figure out why this new Field record bores me while my peers think it's masterful.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:51 (nineteen years ago)

the best examples, i should say.

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:51 (nineteen years ago)

"Beat of My Heart": great songwriting, great production! Dude from Good Charlotte at the knobs!

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:51 (nineteen years ago)

well you've certainly convinced me

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:52 (nineteen years ago)

we're not gonna have to do another lex-ethering sessions as per upthread are we?

― strongohulkington, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:52 (nineteen years ago)

nothing is more forced ecstatic than trance or happy hardcore, and yet neither of them feel like the producer and/or songwriter and/or singer would rather be playing xbox or doing their toenails.

But if I'm "forced" to do anything (even feel ecstasy), wouldn't I want to play xbox or paint my toenails anyway?

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:53 (nineteen years ago)

it's a good thing there are objective truths about music.

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:53 (nineteen years ago)

I mean this would all be pretty ridiculous otherwise huh?

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:53 (nineteen years ago)

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