The Clash: Classic or Dud

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Hmmm. Okay, fair enough, as long as it goes on universally, I'm fine with this theory.

Wire = Elastica = Crap. Madonna = Christina Aguilera = Crap. Clash = Rancid = Crap.

― Ally, Thursday, 22 March 2001 01:00 (twenty-five years ago)

four weeks pass...

bankrobber 7" single = classic EVERYTHING ELSE = kilo-dud the ruts did it, like, 100 x better :)

"we're middle class - yeah, yeah, yeah ----we come from public school - yeah, yeah, yeah" ;-)

"they told us to release complete control - so we DID!" x0x0

― norman fay, Thursday, 19 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

one month passes...

Worth reviving this thread in the light of the 'Never Mind the Bollocks' debate. The potency of 'The Clash' myth never ceases to amaze, once worked with prisoners in Leeds with Clash tatoos, Greil Marcus etc. Yet the few times I've tried listening to one of their albums from start to finish all I hear is dull, lame, grey, piss-weak pub rock.

― Stevo, Wednesday, 6 June 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

Yeah, but wasn't 'Sandinista!' their 'Kid A'?

― tarden, Wednesday, 6 June 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

No. "Sandinista" was their "Tales From Topographic Oceans". I have owned both, so I know, right?

x0x0

― Norman Fay, Thursday, 7 June 2001 00:00 (twenty-five years ago)

one month passes...

I thing the Clash beats Madonna any day of week. Tell, me are you going out this weekend? Thank you. Again, thanks.

― kenny shohan, Monday, 6 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

two years pass...

"Cool Confusion" is classic, too.

― adaml (adaml), Sunday, 28 September 2003 22:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Classic.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 28 September 2003 23:09 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm not in agreement of saying a band is crap, because of the crap it inspired. If we were thinking that way, everything would be crap, cuz any good band has inspired their bits of crap. All of grunge would be down the toilet for making Creed, as would be all NWOBM for giving way to hair metal, all of classic punk would be down the toilet for inspiring all the hordes of late 90s 'punk' bands ala blink-182, rancid, etc. etc. etc. Pavement, Pixies, Replacements, Beatles, all crap if you judge 'em by those standards.

― Cacaman Flores, Sunday, 28 September 2003 23:18 (twenty-two years ago)

All of grunge would be down the toilet for making Creed

I think I'd be fine with that, actually.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 28 September 2003 23:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Last week I saw a grunge covers band called "Chaingarden". They did passable imitations of Stone Temple Pilots, Alice In Chains, and Soundgarden but did a terrible disservice to the admittedly evil Smashing Pumpkins by doing "Today". I went as a favor to Mrs Anthony Kyle Monday. I also saw another band do a country and western version of Just Like Heaven.

― adaml (adaml), Sunday, 28 September 2003 23:27 (twenty-two years ago)

I also saw another band do a country and western version of Just Like Heaven.

See, that sounds cool.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 28 September 2003 23:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Stole the only gaaaal ah luuuhved, drowned 'er deep inside a' meeee..."

― adaml (adaml), Monday, 29 September 2003 00:19 (twenty-two years ago)

I should add that the same band did Hungry Like A Wolf and Train In Vain.

― adaml (adaml), Monday, 29 September 2003 00:20 (twenty-two years ago)

GENIUS. Even with the Clash song, but anyway.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 29 September 2003 01:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Ned, I don't love ya no more. :P

All those digs at the Clash: venomous hogwash. SCORIA. ALL OF IT!!!!!! TAKE IT BACK, SUCKAZ!

― Francis Watlington (Francis Watlington), Monday, 29 September 2003 03:08 (twenty-two years ago)

"Clash weren't real punks, maaaaaaaaan"
argument is British stuff
I don't understand.

I love them so much,
always did and always will,
fun and cool and smart

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Monday, 29 September 2003 04:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Clash are obviously so much more classic than, say, Sex Pistols.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, 29 September 2003 07:50 (twenty-two years ago)

the clash are like the LAST band i'd have expected you to like, geir!

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Monday, 29 September 2003 08:02 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think he said he liked 'em. just that they are better than the pistols (more 'they are more melodic'-type boloocks).

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 29 September 2003 08:39 (twenty-two years ago)

i guess so if you mean the later stuff, but the first album is about as noisy and ugly and non-geirish as albums get.

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Monday, 29 September 2003 09:52 (twenty-two years ago)

The Clash may have made a lot of noise during their early career, but even from Day One they knew how to write great melodies. And the fact that they knew how to play their instruments also gave them a wider selection of chords to choose from.

I do prefer "London Calling", but their debut is also nice enough due to its great melodies and choruses.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, 29 September 2003 10:39 (twenty-two years ago)

The funny thing is, Geir's reasoning probably has a lot to do with why some people say they aren't punk.

― dleone (dleone), Monday, 29 September 2003 11:00 (twenty-two years ago)

From "London Calling" onwards, claiming Sex Pistols were punk would be absurd anyway

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, 29 September 2003 22:21 (twenty-two years ago)

That would be Clash, not SP, obviously...

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, 29 September 2003 22:22 (twenty-two years ago)

(I think I might regret this...)
Geir is my new hero.

― Francis Watlington (Francis Watlington), Tuesday, 30 September 2003 03:09 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm not in agreement of saying a band is crap, because of the crap it inspired.

Yeah, this = true, but at the same time, if you think a band sucks (like the clash, who i still think are totally dud) and there are a load of shit bands who copy them, then you can't help but hate them all the more!

(gier - the buzzcocks and the stranglers wrote better tunes than the clash or the pistols, as you must surely know!)

NB if you are near a branch of hmv, you can get the ruts' "the crack" c/w loads of bonus cuts for 4.99

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Tuesday, 30 September 2003 22:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Coming to this particular party a bit late, but FUCKING CLASSIC, of course. Only a true tete-du-merde could have anything negative to say about Joe Strummer, as far as I'm concerned. Some albums better than others, but irrefutably a truly great band. Are they to blame for Rancid? Sure, but every great band has inspired crap bands (i.e. if that's your biggest reason for hating the Clash, you're a boob!)

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 30 September 2003 22:26 (twenty-two years ago)

CLASSIC. Today I got knocked back by the local Megawhore in my latest bid to escape the supermarket. Felt like worthless shit until I put on 'From Here To Eternity' and did the washing-up.

― Ben Dot, Tuesday, 30 September 2003 23:58 (twenty-two years ago)

I like Buzzcocks and Stranglers, but I still feel like the great singalong chorus of "Clash City Rockers" is just as great as anything those two ever did.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 13:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Rather disappointingly, pretty much dud with classic moments but, when all is said and done, dud

― Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 13:26 (twenty-two years ago)

I won't pit the Clash against the Stranglers and Buzzcocks, as I love them all dearly (though the Stranglers would invariably trounce the other two).

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 13:35 (twenty-two years ago)

one year passes...

Fuck anyone who deosn't like The Clash.

― .adam (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 11 January 2005 22:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Agreed.

― Jazzbo (jmcgaw), Tuesday, 11 January 2005 22:47 (twenty-one years ago)

one year passes...

How killer is the arrangement on "I'm Not Down"? There has to be at least four different stylistic sections to this tune, but it all sounds of a piece.

― Keith C (lync0), Friday, 20 January 2006 04:03 (twenty years ago)

i "discovered" the clash about 2 months ago, after ignoring them my entire life because of all the fawning over them. seeing the video for 'tommy gun' is what convinced me to give them a chance...i tuned in after the opening had gone by and thought 'this kind of sounds like the pixies, who is this??' bought 'give 'em enough rope' and 'greatest hits' shortly afterward. consider me converted. classic!

i love the way strummer's voice sounds during 'train in vain' - what a great song.

― 6335, Friday, 20 January 2006 05:21 (twenty years ago)

*I always get the impression the music doesn’t gel, simply because they were more in love with the idea of black music as ‘being down with the brother man’ (indeed if the Manics nowadays would do the same thing with say…hip-hop, they would be crucified).*

perhaps you were'nt around in the late 70s, but the political situation was very different then. To ally yourself with black music was to be against the rise of the far right, who were on the march in London. Nobody disses the Slits or the Ruts for incorporating a lot of reggae in their sound. UK punk was forged in an alliance of outsider white music and outsider black music (reggae not soul/disco).
I'm all for re-evaluating sacred cows, but get the context right, and you'll never convince me not to love the clash..

― dr x o'skeleton, Monday, 23 January 2006 11:37 (twenty years ago)

reggae music (and it's previous incarnations) were all about the downtrodden rising. the Clash/London punks in general tended to relate. Identifying with "the Other" was a big deal at the time, as mentioned above, but it would be unfair to trivialise it as simply 'i'm down with the brother man because he's different from white people.' I think the attitude of reggae (and of the black population in general, what with the riots, etc...) is what they connected with.

The Clash are classic.

― Gukbe (lokar), Monday, 23 January 2006 12:33 (twenty years ago)

Identification with "The Other" perhaps a bit overestimated as well - many members of the Punk groups cited grew up in pretty racially "integrated" (stupid word, I know) backgrounds, thus the incorporation of Reggae not only a revolutionary pose or whatever but also because, you know, they were used to listening to that kind of music and so why *wouldn't* they incorporate it in their sound?

Of course the Clash were keenly aware that their fetischization of Reggae music was problematic - thus "White Man (In Hammersmith Palais)", "Safe European Home" and the tongue-in-cheek "White Riot" (well, I've always hoped that it was tongue-in-cheek, because taken straight-faced it is one of the dumbest songs ever written.)

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Monday, 23 January 2006 13:34 (twenty years ago)

(reggae not soul/disco)

Train in Vain and Lover's Rock are soul, Lost in the Supermarket is disco, and that's before Sandanista! and Combat Rock...

"White Riot" is a longing for white solidarity with black insurrection, which might be dumb as a newspaper editorial or thesis paper, when it comes to a riot, but was incredibly smart on a gut, emotional, rock&roll level. I still would have told the Clash to put down the bricks and organize, but it's not like they did much rioting after Notting Hill.

― Pete Scholtes (Pete Scholtes), Monday, 23 January 2006 22:16 (twenty years ago)

This is the ILM equivalent of Piss Christ, but God are these mothers overrated!!
Joe Strummer, rest in peace and all, is an abominable singer - Jesus he is tone-deaf. And you guys complain about the limpwristed indie boys not singing well- true enough, but this guy was off the charts in crimes against vocal artistry, he makes Dylan sound like Sam Cooke!! And they had such a lumpen, plodding musicality. The debut is actually pretty good as i recall, and Mick Jones knew how to write an ok pop tune (but with oh so little to say - especially see B.A.D).

Ultimately, y'all heard them at an impressionable age, they had the right attitude and political agenda, and you are smoking crack if you don't think their reputation has been overblown a bit over the years. Not a dud per se, just an average band that somehow grew into a legend without the songs to really justify it. Sorry.....

― anne of seven crackers, Tuesday, 24 January 2006 07:59 (twenty years ago)

dylan was every bit as good a singer as sam cooke.

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Tuesday, 24 January 2006 08:08 (twenty years ago)

yeah, i was gonna say

― stockholm cindy (winter version) (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 24 January 2006 08:09 (twenty years ago)

dylan was fine at singing his songs, and some tunes from the folk/roots tradition, but in what universe is he as good a singer as Sam Cooke??? I was just using bob as an example of someone who is generally not considered a "great vocalist" and I still think that is the general public consensus, even many people who admire him would admit this. And perhaps Joe was fine at singing his songs, maybe I just think the songs don't measure up

― anne of seven crackers, Tuesday, 24 January 2006 08:16 (twenty years ago)

"White Riot" is a longing for white solidarity with black insurrection

White riot, I wanna riot
White riot, a riot of my own
White riot, I wanna riot
White riot, a riot of my own
Black man gotta lot a problems
But they don't mind throwing a brick
White people go to school
Where they teach you how to be thick

[Emphasis added.]

How is this a "longing for solidarity" rather than simple envy?

Clash: Dud. Sorry.

― xero (xero), Tuesday, 24 January 2006 08:20 (twenty years ago)

Okay, the solidarity is implied rather than spelled out. It's in the sympathy of the lyric "black man gotta lot of problems," in the imagery of the cover art (using the Notting Hill riot itself), in the choice of cover song elsewhere on the album (the reggae "Police and Thieves"), and in the context of the riot being a fresh memory.

Even if it were pure envy, it would be brilliant. How many songs are about something you want, whether or not you should have it? It's the exact opposite of the "being down" nonsense at the top. The song says, in effect, "I'm not black. I have my own struggle. But I wish I could lash out like that. I identify with that feeling."

Did any whites come close to being this honest in the universalist '50s or '60s? Did Dylan ever mention being white at all? Imagine Elvis putting images from the '68 Memphis sanitation workers strike that broke into riots on a record sleeve, and singing about how black men marching on Beale Street might be something a white truck driver should emulate, and you begin to understand the impact this song had for punks at the time.

I only came to deeply love the Clash in '88, at a cool distance from all that (and when I was 18), so I'm at least objective enough to hear that Strummer is singing in key, whatever else you don't like about his voice or delivery...

― Pete Scholtes (Pete Scholtes), Thursday, 26 January 2006 04:55 (twenty years ago)

It's not longing for solidarity with black insurrection, it explicity IS solidarity with black insurrection. Strummer is saying that (poor) whites and blacks had the same battles to fight (the Clash being integrationist in culture, classist in politics - which is to avoid the obvious 'well, racism means they aren't fighting the same battles'), only whites were content to rest meekly.

― Erick Dampier is better than Shaq (miloaukerman), Thursday, 26 January 2006 05:20 (twenty years ago)

dud

― mullygrubbr (bulbs), Thursday, 26 January 2006 05:27 (twenty years ago)

with some really great exceptions.

like everyone really.

― mullygrubbr (bulbs), Thursday, 26 January 2006 05:28 (twenty years ago)

i love the way strummer's voice sounds during 'train in vain' - what a great song.

it is a great song, but that's not strummer.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Thursday, 26 January 2006 05:42 (twenty years ago)

Skipping 214 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

Stealing All Transmissions: A Secret History of The Clash, by Randal Doane.

― The Dark End of the Tweet (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 27 November 2022 05:14 (three years ago)

https://artsfuse.org/117329/fuse-book-review-stealing-all-transmissions-how-the-clash-conquered-america/

― The Dark End of the Tweet (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 27 November 2022 18:20 (three years ago)

Thanks---btw did I mention my Voice coverage of The Sandinista! Project, archived here w link to more TSP comments on my Nashville Scene ballot: https://myvil.blogspot.com/2016/06/clash-stash-actually-cuts-crap.html
Also, did yall see this?

The new Joe Strummer boxset, Joe Strummer 002: The Mescaleros Years, will be released on September 16th, 2022, as part of the celebrations honouring Joe’s 70th birthday year. The first-ever comprehensive collection highlighting Joe’s work with his post-Clash band, The Mescaleros, the collection includes remastered editions of all three of the band’s studio albums, plus 15 rare and unreleased tracks spanning the first demos Joe wrote for the Mescaleros, and outtakes of several tracks of Joe’s final recordings with the band...

https://www.joestrummer.com/news/new-joe-strummer-002-the-mescaleros-years-boxset-available-for-pre-order

― dow, Sunday, 27 November 2022 20:03 (three years ago)

Cool.

That book starts off talking about this, of course:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyuGLHnZhOI

― The Dark End of the Tweet (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 28 November 2022 02:38 (three years ago)

eight months pass...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDDZgEHaczA

― Thus Sang Freud, Saturday, 12 August 2023 16:14 (two years ago)

toss up whether to put it here or on the kevin ayers thread.

― Thus Sang Freud, Saturday, 12 August 2023 16:16 (two years ago)

Wow, guess I have to click to see.

― No Zing Compares 2 HOOS (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 12 August 2023 16:21 (two years ago)

Viz. Costello thing: yes! That Spanish This Year Model is super great. You also get to hear how No Action and I Don't Want to Go to Chelsea were recorded basically as one track. I was fearful of that project but it's so good. Now if we could only get the real Rat Patrol (which I know we won't).

― three of the doctor's valuable bats are now dead (broom air), Sunday, 13 August 2023 23:35 (two years ago)

eleven months pass...

Somewhere in the world there’s probably a kid named Topher Headon and neither he nor his parents have a clue.

― It was on a accident (hardcore dilettante), Monday, 5 August 2024 22:27 (one year ago)

ten months pass...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6onlQ2Kr-Vc

― sleeve, Sunday, 15 June 2025 19:16 (eleven months ago)

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