Tortoise: Classic or Dud

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haha, wasn't chris brokaw also in that band?

No, but Ken "Don't Call Me Bundy" Brown was.

― hstencil, Friday, 17 January 2003 20:10 (twenty-three years ago)

i saw them at that thrill jockey party at hackney ocean in september. i thought they were the most boring, audience-hating bunch of retards. it was such a predicable, routine performance.

and the audience wasn't much better. standing their stroking their chins and furrowing their brows. i was trying to fucking dance, dammit!

― fields of salmon (fieldsofsalmon), Friday, 17 January 2003 20:53 (twenty-three years ago)

i can't say i really like, nor listen, to tortoise much any more (just put on the Gamera single - not too bad), but they were a major stepping stone in my musical knowledge back in the day.

near the end of college, listening to lots of "college rock" (pavement et al.), i discovered tortoise, and it really blew the door open for discovering non-rock bands that are amazing and influential. while not necesarilly introducing me to lots of styles, they made me really interested in new territories -- dub, kraut rock, prog, electronic, minimalist composers like steve reich and terry riley, ennio morricone, glitch [through label mates oval], more out forms of jazz.

i think after a while the whole post rock scene became very same-y, especially from the second generation of post-rock bands, who's influences were tortoise, rather than all of the aforementioned styles tortoise borrowed from.

i once met the band, while they were Tom Ze's back up band, and they were complete assholes

and Standards was a big steaming pile of dog doo

― JasonD (JasonD), Friday, 17 January 2003 20:57 (twenty-three years ago)

oh, and after really getting into the styles of music which Tortoise built their sound around, i realized it's been done way better 30 years earlier

― JasonD (JasonD), Friday, 17 January 2003 21:10 (twenty-three years ago)

i saw them at that thrill jockey party at hackney ocean in september. i thought they were the most boring, audience-hating bunch of retards. it was such a predicable, routine performance.
and the audience wasn't much better. standing their stroking their chins and furrowing their brows. i was trying to fucking dance, dammit!

I saw them at the NYC show, and it was no good either. I've seen them a bunch live, tho, and that was the first time they were truly sucky. And I've danced during those other shows, too (and unlike Out Hud, they did not command me to!).

i once met the band, while they were Tom Ze's back up band, and they were complete assholes

hehehehe, well I can see that. Was that when Ze played Park West? I was at that show. Anyway, McEntire's kinda shy, which makes him seem aloof (I don't think he played with Ze). Herndon is kinda bratty sometimes. But Doug, Bitney and Jeff are some of the nicest guys I've known, ever. ESP. Doug. That man is totally a saint. Unpretentious, down-to-earth, willing and able to chat about anything/everything in a really cool way. If most "hatas" got to meet Doug and just talk with him for five mintues, their icy hearts would melt. Or not. I say that tho 'cause a lot of the hating has little to do with the music, and much to do with a (mis)perception of their personalities.

and Standards was a big steaming pile of dog doo

No disagreement here, bro-dy. Don't know why I own this.

― hstencil, Friday, 17 January 2003 21:41 (twenty-three years ago)

Really liked the first LP and the "Gamera" 12" and the "Why We Fight" 7". And the first remix LP. Everything else I have forgotten about.

― mosurock (mosurock), Saturday, 18 January 2003 00:07 (twenty-three years ago)

Hstencil you have back-up: I think Donut Bitch, during his whirlwind tour of the U.S., accidentally wound up chatting with some very nice guys by the Empty Bottle (one of whom turned out to be Doug).

― nabisco (nabisco), Saturday, 18 January 2003 00:21 (twenty-three years ago)

Dud. At a certain moment when post-hardcore / stagnating "indie rock" was tapped out, Tortoise came along and made every bad choice in moving beyond their roots. The choice to go instrumental; the academic "appreciation" for and "tasteful" emulation of a swath of very safely canonical-type avant-garde/underground/jazzish/dubby musics, each becoming drained of its life-blood when brought into the Tortoise mix; the pretentious "professionalism" of the band (whose members each seemed to want to be known as instrumental "players" in their own right); the deliberate "professionalism" of the production (from within the band itself); the feigned "unprofessionalism" of the TNT cover art; the messing with Stereolab (see above); the patent lack of fun in both their recordings and their live shows; the god-awful live cover version of the Art Ensemble of Chicago;---ACK ACK ACK! Yeah, they really bug the hell out of me. I sense that their intentions are generally good and yet the result is so bad--maybe that's what really bothers me. I mean it seems like they genuinely care about the music they like and which influences them, they have laudable DIY tendencies in wanting to also be repsonsible for the production side (thinking of McEntire here), they have some kind of ambition to push themselves into new directions--and yet, and yet all these bad things people say about them seem true, and I don't enjoy them a whit. So right but SOOOO wrong.

― arch Ibog (arch Ibog), Saturday, 18 January 2003 03:55 (twenty-three years ago)

and Ned, why don't you go flounce off?

Shan't.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 18 January 2003 04:06 (twenty-three years ago)

the god-awful live cover version of the Art Ensemble of Chicago

Oh jeez ... what AECO tune did they butcher?

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Saturday, 18 January 2003 07:42 (twenty-three years ago)

Oh jeez ... what AECO tune did they butcher?

"Theme de Yo Yo", sans vocals, natch. It was ARGGGH-ifying.

― arch Ibog (arch Ibog), Saturday, 18 January 2003 15:58 (twenty-three years ago)

"Theme de Yo Yo", sans vocals, natch

Natch.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Saturday, 18 January 2003 19:39 (twenty-three years ago)

That soundtracky sounding song on Millions... has got a pretty nice ambience to it, but the rest... eh.. pretty boring.

― Ian Johnson, Sunday, 19 January 2003 22:53 (twenty-three years ago)

seven months pass...

I'm not that familiar with their other albums, but I listened to TNT again the other night and had forgotten just how pretty it is.

― Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 17 September 2003 15:31 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree with the folks who sight their singles and remixes -- and yes, i too frequent albums from Keith Jarret (not boring, but rather, emotionally paced). Nobody has yet mentioned the In The Fishtank E.P. completed with the Ex -- see "Pleasure As Usual" for an engagingly vocal amalgam of the two.

― christoff (christoff), Wednesday, 17 September 2003 16:15 (twenty-two years ago)

They're one of the most organic bands I can think of right now, in terms of sound-textures and composition. Like, I've yet to hear them play something that sounds out of place within the context of each piece. They're all very good at playing into each other (as opposed to playing off of each other). I also have never been too keen on Standards, but otherwise they're the fuckin' poo diggitty as far as I'm concerned. They're wonderful morning-sex music.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 17 September 2003 16:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Standards is my favourite that I own to be honest.

― dog latin (dog latin), Wednesday, 17 September 2003 21:36 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm listening to the 6th song on the directions in music album... wow.

anyone listened to this lately? i think it's aged much better than the tortoise stuff.

― gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 18 September 2003 06:30 (twenty-two years ago)

mixwise, this song is the perfect bridge between tortoise's "his second storey island" and "gamera"/"goriri" (i'm pretty sure both bundy brown-era tortoise material)...

the drone dissolving into the concrete then the emergence of the acoustic passages and finally the abstract jungle beats into reverse synth bleeding.

― gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 18 September 2003 06:38 (twenty-two years ago)

my woman used to love that Directions in Music album, but i sold it......sux to be her

― JasonD (JasonD), Thursday, 18 September 2003 06:43 (twenty-two years ago)

The four minutes or so of Djed leading up to the tape fuck-up, or whatever one chooses to call it, are utterly classic IMO. Too bad it wasn't a standalone song.

― Damian (Damian), Thursday, 18 September 2003 11:01 (twenty-two years ago)

These days, I'm constantly taken aback by how many new jazz albs these days borrow bits and pieces of the Tortoise 'sound' (Jaga Jazzist are the most obv example)

― Andrew L (Andrew L), Thursday, 18 September 2003 17:42 (twenty-two years ago)

If Tortoise were actually a jazz band, I think they might be the Brian Blade Fellowship (or maybe it's just the Jeff Parker crossover talking).

― Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 18 September 2003 18:06 (twenty-two years ago)

three months pass...

TNT is indeed very pretty - I am listening to it right now and it is stunning.

― jed (jed_e_3), Friday, 2 January 2004 19:34 (twenty-two years ago)

They do I cover of Robert Ashley's In Sara mumble mumble mumble? That's a little intriguing..

― Rockist Scientist, Friday, 2 January 2004 19:37 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah i wondered was that a cover or "inspired by" or what - in fact it was someone mentioning sara mumble mumble in another thread today that made me dig this out again.

― jed (jed_e_3), Friday, 2 January 2004 19:39 (twenty-two years ago)

I haven't heard it, but saw that they did it and the title had to be more than a coincidence. (I describe it the way I do partly because I can't remember the exact wording of the title, but Ashely does do I lot of mumbling. I like his speaking style though, overall. I once overheard him talking at a music festival event: "That is [pause] sublime." The way he said it was wonderful)

― Rockist Scientist, Friday, 2 January 2004 19:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Aha - i have never heard it and now i want to. The tortoise versione is called "In Sara, Mencken, Christ and Beethoven there were Women and Men" as opposed to "...there were Men and Women" in the Ashley version.

― jed (jed_e_3), Friday, 2 January 2004 19:49 (twenty-two years ago)

It's not really great or anything, but worth hearing. My favorite Ashley doesn't seem to be available on CD. It's Perfect Live/Private Parts: The Bar.

― Rockist Scientist, Friday, 2 January 2004 20:03 (twenty-two years ago)

the Ashley piece is a setting of the poem by John Barton Wolgamot. the Tortoise piece could be a direct reference to the poem, who knows.

Rockist: 'The Bar' is available on the three disc version of Perfect Lives, but it's a slightly different recording. That is an exceptional piece. He should get a whole thread, I'm an Ashley fanatic.

― (Jon L), Saturday, 3 January 2004 00:14 (twenty-two years ago)

I want the original recording though. I think I heard the new one and didn't like it. (I'm very reactionary about recordings of old experimental favorites.) At least I still have my vinyl copy in storage.

I didn't know the Ashley piece was based on someone else's poem.

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Saturday, 3 January 2004 01:26 (twenty-two years ago)

you're right, the original 'The Bar' is better. it's a fantastic record. don't know what's holding up the CD reissue, it'd fit on one disc with ashley's 'music word fire' disco 12" (which many people hate, but I don't).

and the only thing the tortoise piece has in common with the ashley piece is the namedrop. still no need to listen to tortoise.

― (Jon L), Saturday, 3 January 2004 01:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Is that "Music Word Fire" the one that goes something like I coo coo you coo coo, etc. I don't think I liked it at first, but I think I got to like it.

But I bought some later Ashley that didn't hook me in, so I've kind of backed off from his work. (I can't think of the title right now, but it was a large-scale opera type thing.) Also, "The Bar" is really my favorite part of that Perfect Lives work.

I guess one of us should start an Ashley thread. You know more than I do, but if you start one some time, I'll chime in, maybe think of something new to say (maybe not).

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Saturday, 3 January 2004 01:54 (twenty-two years ago)

next time I gain the courage to start another thread that'll sink to the bottom three posts later, it'll be an Ashley thread. but I'm unreliable, I've crossed the threshhold and I can even appreciate most of the operas. But 'Automatic Writing', 'The Wolfman', and the hidden secret 'Yellow Man With Heart With Wings'.

didn't mean to be anti-Tortoise above, they certainly were better than many things in the 90's.

― (Jon L), Saturday, 3 January 2004 02:16 (twenty-two years ago)

ubuweb has a PDF of Wolgamot's poem online here, along with the liner notes. I have the Cramps edition, had never read the story behind the poem; wow.

― (Jon L), Saturday, 3 January 2004 02:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I read that with amazement, but by the end I was wondering if this whole story is a prank. You're sure it's legit?

― Rockist Scientist, Saturday, 3 January 2004 03:37 (twenty-two years ago)

who knows, stranger things. in the end there's only the poem itself really.

frustrating to realize only the rough tape survived. think of what they could have done with a more detailed mixdown.

― (Jon L), Saturday, 3 January 2004 03:40 (twenty-two years ago)

UBUWeb is incredible - i could spend 2 lifetimes looking through it. My frind has a long prose-poem on it here if you are interested.

― jed (jed_e_3), Saturday, 3 January 2004 03:41 (twenty-two years ago)

i think its really good and ill look forward to reading that Wolgamot Poem, thanks.

― jed (jed_e_3), Saturday, 3 January 2004 03:43 (twenty-two years ago)

four months pass...

I finally listened to "Djed" and it's not awful. I think I would have liked it more if I heard it back in the 80's than I do now (not that it was there to be heard then). The minimalist/Krautrock/prog. blend is less appealing to me now than it was then. I like something a little more rhythmically articulated. (I don't know if that's really the right word, but I like how it sounds.) But, this is okay. I could see myself possibly getting to like it more.

I don't see what the big deal with the "tape crash" thing is.

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Monday, 31 May 2004 01:42 (twenty-two years ago)

I like the marimba (or whatever it is).

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Monday, 31 May 2004 01:50 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm not sure I need to buy it though.

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Monday, 31 May 2004 01:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I got It's All Around You the other day. Meh. Works if I'm in the right mood.

― Pack Yr Romantic Almanac (Autumn Almanac), Monday, 31 May 2004 02:01 (twenty-two years ago)

I still like it.

― Jordan (Jordan), Monday, 31 May 2004 03:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Surprisingly, Tortoise put on one of the funnest shows I've ever attended.

― Mike Stuchbery, Monday, 31 May 2004 11:38 (twenty-two years ago)

two weeks pass...

I listened to Millions Now Living again last night. Some of it is too fusion-y for me. One track was surprisingly similar to Ralph Lundsten (not a name I see mentioned too much), with some space rock mixed in.

― Rockist Scientist, Wednesday, 16 June 2004 13:37 (twenty-one years ago)

I heard that "Salt the Skies" track from the new album and really liked it, so I guess I'll have to buy it now.

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 13:43 (twenty-one years ago)

"Salt the Skies" may be the best track on It's All Around You. I definitely thought so the first few times I heard the album -- but now I'm not so sure, since others have grown on me. It's a pleasant album, but I can't get excited about it the way I got excited about Millions and TNT.

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 14:08 (twenty-one years ago)

hmmm, maybe I should just see if there's a single.

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 14:14 (twenty-one years ago)

I still like the album...actually it's hard for me to think of individual songs on Tortoise albums, if I'm in the mood to listen to them I usually end up listening to the whole thing.

― Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 14:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Skipping 387 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

I liked The Catastrophist too. Not necessarily my favorite of theirs, but I did like it. I've only heard one song from the new one - holding off until the whole thing is available to me.

Super bummed I missed their LA show at The Broad a week or so back...

― sctttnnnt (pgwp), Monday, 27 October 2025 23:22 (seven months ago)

in Tortoise sideproject news: a track off Pullman's new record showed up on Bandcamp and it's great:

https://pullman.bandcamp.com/track/weightless

― imperial frfr (Steve Shasta), Monday, 27 October 2025 23:41 (seven months ago)

Oh wow, there’s a band I haven’t thought about in roughly 25 years

― sctttnnnt (pgwp), Tuesday, 28 October 2025 02:48 (seven months ago)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2025/11/10/obamacare-aca-premiums-rising-shutdown/
ACA health care premiums are rising. These 8 Americans showed us how much.

Tortoise member included in these 8 Americans

― Noob Layman (WmC), Saturday, 8 November 2025 15:07 (six months ago)

huh, i didn't know McCombs was married/partnered to (former Chicago Reader editor) Kiki Yablon

― jaymc, Saturday, 8 November 2025 15:17 (six months ago)

does an ilxor want two tickets to see them tonight at the bowery ballroom? spoiler: no jeff because he has a family emergency. I saw the show last night and it was good but not feeling inspired to do it again.

― pitted (blue6ave), Saturday, 15 November 2025 21:00 (six months ago)

Finding the new one very addictive, surprisingly so. Had listened a fair bit in the run up to seeing them at the Barbican last weekend (matinee performance, v civilised and they were terrific I thought) and had assumed the second I walked out I'd be 'great, enjoyed that, that's my burst of Tortoise for another few years' but I keep putting it on.

― woof, Wednesday, 26 November 2025 16:14 (six months ago)

four months pass...

A friend put "Promenade a Deux" on a compilation CD for me and it just caught me in the right way, the other evening. I had felt a bit "I'm not sure I need anymore Tortoise" but it sounded great.

― djh, Monday, 30 March 2026 15:55 (two months ago)

three weeks pass...

Actually, the whole album sounded magnificent last night (as a soundtrack to drunk washing-up).

― djh, Sunday, 26 April 2026 08:06 (one month ago)

One always needs more Tortoise. Especially as their most recent album was ever so good.

― King GrimSon (Pfunkboy of ILX), Monday, 27 April 2026 08:10 (one month ago)

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