ILM is kinda sucking these days (boring and meta ignore not safe for work)

I think this is conflating "expertise" (which was used somewhat tongue in cheek) with enforced opinions.

used nonetheless in anger, not a coincidental choice of words.

lol the whole point of hardmanning is that you don't even have to be particularly angry while you destroy

but yes it was not coincidental, I stand by the point though that expertise and subjectivity are not opposed.

i've never seen anything to suggest that if you were to go into a goon thread not being a super expert but posting a thoughtful bit on how u might like a tune and what it does for you personally you'd get run out of town. if people have different tastes to your own, well think about that then and maybe engage with the questions that asks. proper ilx subjectivity is like what matt dc or the patron saint tom ewing do, not "well i like it http://i.imgur.com/8KEOfmW.gif"

i mean subjectivity is just a thing, the fact you feel comfortable with elevating it to this pious level where it can be invoked defensively says a lot in itself imo. when that then can mutate into such a sense of entitlement where the goon thread is referred to with a feeling of resentment like it's one of the bad things round here then something's well and truly got twisted. i don't deny it's a challenging thread but how can u ever lose sight of its basic awesomeness?

expertise and subjectivity are not opposed, they're complementary. That combination is what ilx does best imo.

i don't deny it's a challenging thread but how can u ever lose sight of its basic awesomeness?

yeah this is how I feel

also matt dc is a really good poster to invoke here, that sense of a poster who carries authority not because of expertise per se but just because he wears his taste so well. I always feel like he is like the flag that people compete for, if matt is on my side in an argument then I have won.

tbf, others mentioned the goon thread, i was't talking specifically about that, more generally about ilm, and i'm not saying that as a dodge, i genuinely didn't mention it if you read back.

proper ilx subjectivity is like what matt dc or the patron saint tom ewing do, not "well i like it

i mean subjectivity is just a thing, the fact you feel comfortable with elevating it to this pious level where it can be invoked defensively says a lot in itself imo

i'm not invoking it defensively. i just think there's too much righteousness around. having an opinion is one thing, expressing it sharply is no prob with me either, but this sense of right and wrong actually is a barrier to decent conversation most of the time, it can be like reading a sport messageboard sometimes, especially with all the end of year stuff of late.

xpost i don't get the sense of "winning"...

i will say that there are posting habits on the rolling rap threads that have always annoyed me and that i could see putting people off from trying to follow them -- for instance posting just a youtube embed with a brief "this is great"-type statement with no real description or even mention of the artist or song title, so even if someone later wants to see if that song's been discussed, opening the whole thread and ctrl+f won't do you much good, and of course someone will give you shit if you end up posting something they already posted.

xpost i don't get the sense of "winning"...

― Ballboy to Afghanistan (LocalGarda), Saturday, January 26, 2013 12:17 PM (44 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I call bs on this, I have seen you in enough battles and was usually on your side too, so don't pretend you've been holding a peace sit-in the past decade.

yeah the youtube torrent can be pesky but again it's not indicative of some great contempt for the wider world, it's just some inefficient admin shit

ehhhh a lil bit, a lil bit

I call bs on this, I have seen you in enough battles and was usually on your side too, so don't pretend you've been holding a peace sit-in the past decade.

lol, true, HOWEVER, how many of these were about opinion not being fact? :)

When I talk about "winning" it's never on the assumption that I am fundamentally right and someone else is fundamentally wrong. My taste in music has changed enough over time that - contra, say, lex - I don't ultimately see that there is any particular virtue in me liking/disliking particular things, except at the most instinctive kneejerk reaction level. It's a game: can I make my experience of x seem more persuasively right-seeming than yours?

Personally don't find the goon thread off putting. Deej, Some dude, j0rdan and whiney will go hard at each other but lay off the other posters. I mean to tbf I only ever post "I liked that" or "Thanks for the link" etc so I'm a very boring poster but it's not like posting something like that gets a sarcastic "Good Post!" reply or anything. Also whenever the goon thread is brought up on ILX the impression given, and I've just perpetuated it, is that it's consist only of deej, whiney, some dude, j0rdan whereas there's also Rev, Number None, EZ, Sisilafami, Dayo, Spottie, Lex and many others.

xxp

xp right. and more often than not it's ironically actually the subjectivitists that are more unpersuadeable than the fanatics

if you can persuade me that's true i'll agree with you

xp right. and more often than not it's ironically actually the subjectivitists that are more unpersuadeable than the fanatics

― r|t|c, Saturday, January 26, 2013 12:53 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah, I think because a really compelling seeming argument actually shakes someone who likes to think their taste is built on something. If it's all meaninglessly subjective then one may as well be obstinate.

that's only theoretically true

as you can see i outsourced my persuasion department to tim years ago

yeah the pool of regulars has only seemed to grow over the past couple years, which is nice. but y'know, even when the bickering among the core group is directed inward, i dunno, i can still see that being an unwelcome sight to others.

the whole genesis of the rolling rap threads was that there was a real dearth of threads being started about individual hip hop records/artists compared to early ILM. i don't think the rolling threads should stop people from starting more specific threads, though, especially if they want to discuss something at length without first wading through a bunch of unrelated youtubes. the Kendrick thread seemed to be pretty successful in terms of people having a place to talk about a significant record. xp

there's two different meanings of subjective being used itt tho. "Subjective" as in a fervent advocate of one's own personal preference (which is I think necessary part of expertise - it's the part that makes expertise unpompous), and "subjective" as in it being difficult to compare matters of taste or individual experience, or rather that being used as a rhetorical technique to pull up the conversational barricades and saying "I win".

The first is great, the second shit.

the first can still be pretty shit if it's not at least semipermeable

the prob i have with tim/rtc's argument is that we're all subjectivists here, in reality, right? just occasionally we behave fanatically. i don't think anyone genuinely believes they can prove their opinions through fact or logic.

but that's where how you wear yr tastes comes in - the individual tone of expression. it's never about "proof" but some expressions are more convincing than others through the wit and tone with which they're expressed.

I completely agree.

that's not a terrible meta joke btw, i do.

ok, misread the non argument. xpost.

I believe that taste is subjective, but I don't particularly respect my subjective taste. I'm likely to be persuaded by a good argument. So why should I assume other people won't be persuaded by me if I can argue the point well enough?

Of course I'm using "argument" but this is really just an extension of how good music writing can help you to hear things in a tune you might not hear otherwise (good things or bad things).

and that xpost wasn't snark! posting on a phone can get confusing.

I don't really take issue with any of this. I think all of this morning's discussion clarifies that my original point was related to when things stray too far into the realms of the fanatic or "expertise" (this kind of language just drives me up the wall)

Wouldn't you rather read "Metallica rule", "No they suck, asshole" etc....?

there's always been furious, self-righteous bickering on ilx, though i think it's increasingly in shorthand because the regular personalities have been chafing against each other for years. but there's this tendency to imagine some new poster who innocently wanders in and gets ripped apart, and it's not like new posters say "hey i don't know nothing about nothing, golly, teach me, you pro-am freelancers, teach me!" they're just as opinionated and proud as anyone else - that's why they went to a message board - they're just not used to lil warriors c+p'ing their every folly. it's not that people are more cruel here - they're just more incisive and witty then your average comments section cop. part of why i'm so glib when an ilxor is all "oh it's so mean, everyone's such an competitive, unaccepting jerk" is that i don't see it coming from anyone with any actual high ground on the matter. those people either live with it or leave. so when there's bellyaching I have to assume they just feel underappreciated or something.

there are still times when it's totally unnecessary and just rude/nasty, and not funny, not even funny in a creative zing way.

i didn't mean to suggest otherwise

are you guys sure we're not missing a more important question about the goon threads???

Mordy Reprises His Role from "are the rolling hip-hop threads racist?" thread? "ILM is kinda sucking" thread is LULz

Seriously ILX, call Mordy cause you're in the RACIST ZONE over goon threads (on ILX)

http://www.assignmentx.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/CHILDRENS-HOSPITAL-S3-Corddry-Marino.jpg

ilx is in the gutter

Did the waaahmbulance take you to clown college

you guys are almost making me want to check out the goon thread. ALMOST.

actually i should probably check it out just for some video action. that's the one thing my facebook is lacking is people posting cool new videos/songs. i need new facebook friends. the only rap i get on facebook is from ethan. and i appreciate it cuz i usually haven't heard what he posts. facebook is how i found out about kendrick lamar.

I find out about music by watching what Ned posts on facebook

I think think ilm has been really good lately tbh

u would what with ur super awesome takoma thread

Also I think the goons do a good job, and the thread is no more combative than it ever was.

It's pretty easy to project feelings about hip hop right now onto the goons, but honestly we're in a weird place, there will always be good and exiting hip hop to listen to but I think it's old enough now where it's more like rock or jazz and any changes are going to be more evolutionary or variations on style rather than revolutionary

For a lot of us, that's strange as for say 25 years you could pretty much count on hip hop to be on the cultural and musical vanguard, so it's natural to think that it always would be, but that simply can't be sustained forever. It's not a ”new” musical form anymore, even though I kept thinking about it like that.

All that's not to say that hip hop won't be good or interesting to listen to in the future, there's still plenty of rock and jazz and even classical that's great

My point being if you can find anyone that stays more on top of hip hop than the goons I'd be surprised, and their enthusiasm is great

that's strange as for say 25 years you could pretty much count on hip hop to be on the cultural and musical vanguard

The cultural vanguard? Really? Significant aspects of it have seemed pretty retrograde over the years. Not prepared to argue the point, so it might be wiser not to comment, but I really can't let that go by without some response. Maybe I could see it as in the vanguard in a canary in the mine shaft type of thing.

pop culture/style culture I meant

All that's not to say that hip hop won't be good or interesting to listen to in the future, there's still plenty of rock and jazz and even classical that's great

even classical, yeah..