ILM is kinda sucking these days (boring and meta ignore not safe for work)

As a place to talk records it has remained the same.

yes it still has buttons and boxes you type in.

we still communicate using symbols that we call "letters".

any analysis beyond that isn't even worth expending precious letters on.

Boxes to type in is enough though. it basically comes down to that.

letters form words and we have other symbols to punctuate them like commas to mirror breathing and pauses when we talk.

anyway you can flip or deflate "too much expertise" to say hey there are people who care about what they are talking about. Maybe too much at times but isn't that a positive.

there's not much point discussing this when your pov seems to be that the place would always be the same regardless of anything or anyone posting in it.

what an endorsement

ILM as a place to discuss a real actual range of musics with 'popular' at its centre (the key thing) hasn't changed so you get posters who like lots and are open to liking lots of other things too. you simultaneously see people who like and know a thing in detail and others who want to find out more and post er somewhat more naively perhaps but I don't see lots of shutting out. Don't get how they're cutting subjectivity?

Couple of other msg boards I've seen over the years don't have anything like ILM has, as in lots of experts who congregate on one thing (bcz the board was designed for that).

I am generally a big fan of rtc's contributions but it's precisely this attitude that bothers me about ILM at the moment. the sanctity of subjectivity used to be a big deal here and it isn't anymore.

I think this is conflating "expertise" (which was used somewhat tongue in cheek) with enforced opinions.

If anything is forbidding about the goon threads (apart from them generally taking forever to load) it's not consensus but the disagreements: if some dude and whiney and deej and rev and j0rdan and etc. all agreed with one another about what is hot and what is not then it'd be a lot easier for a less-informed listener to get up to speed by following along! I suspect it's the fact that posters may feel like they're wading into a minefield where at any moment they're gonna get caught in the cross-fire between the thoroughly conflicting opinions of "experts" that makes this harder.

likewise don't mind that sort of thing - the biggest barrier to participation in the rolling goon/whatever thread is how quickly it moves/how much stuff there is. Tend to see "insider baseball talk" as having the fascination of overhearing professional jargon - and with persistent attention you pick it up, a bit anyway.

yes, I'm not going to weigh into an impenetrable 100-post clusterfuck with "Sorry, hang on a sec, who's this Keef chap?" - that wd be asking to be ignored - but since participating in thread means adding to its sum, anything more than that, which shows interest is making a thread more accessible.

if you get hounded out by genre-line police, that seems genuinely inimicable to the ilx spirit (and entirely of it as well - as xyzzz___ pointed out elsewhere). Likewise "you don't understand what we understand". (There's a bit of that as well). Ok, so what contributes to the gap - what is the nature of the knowledge? These questions can be asked and answered fruitfully.

Or with fuck you asshole gtf off our board.

Which wd also be funny.

"the sanctity of subjectivity", crikey. that one's gonna keep me warm for many a cold month ahead.

Jesus Christ why the fuck am I standing outside a church posting about ilx goon manners on my fucking phone. What the fuck am I doing with my life.

go into the church

find jesus

renounce goon

zing jesus

jesus is kinda sucking these days

2013 Gavin Bryars' remix

better than the original.

But I'm a heartless shit really.

is it safe and warm in LA at the moment?

out of interest what do you find sucky about the OG "Jesus' Blood"?

the biggest barrier to participation in the rolling goon/whatever thread is how quickly it moves/how much stuff there is.

this is down to how hip hop has changed since 2000, though, not just ILM. back then rap fans had a notable new album to discuss every 6 weeks or so, now there's a notable new mixtape every 6 hours.

I was ilxing at the pulpit, I knew it was wrong
But I left in mid-sermon tempted by a goon-thread zing.

I like it ok -- accidental masterpiece and all that. I just dislike the way its used by some of its supporters to talk about the lack of emotion in other modern classical matter. xxp

never come across that kind of talk, i like it ok too but have unformed reservations which are still unformed i guess

do i have to be at work to ignore the "meta"?

or is it all right to ignore at home also?

"the sanctity of subjectivity", crikey. that one's gonna keep me warm for many a cold month ahead.

cool, and hey, if not you can always just lambast a few occasional posters for no reason whatsoever.

I think this is conflating "expertise" (which was used somewhat tongue in cheek) with enforced opinions.

used nonetheless in anger, not a coincidental choice of words.

lol the whole point of hardmanning is that you don't even have to be particularly angry while you destroy

but yes it was not coincidental, I stand by the point though that expertise and subjectivity are not opposed.

i've never seen anything to suggest that if you were to go into a goon thread not being a super expert but posting a thoughtful bit on how u might like a tune and what it does for you personally you'd get run out of town. if people have different tastes to your own, well think about that then and maybe engage with the questions that asks. proper ilx subjectivity is like what matt dc or the patron saint tom ewing do, not "well i like it http://i.imgur.com/8KEOfmW.gif"

i mean subjectivity is just a thing, the fact you feel comfortable with elevating it to this pious level where it can be invoked defensively says a lot in itself imo. when that then can mutate into such a sense of entitlement where the goon thread is referred to with a feeling of resentment like it's one of the bad things round here then something's well and truly got twisted. i don't deny it's a challenging thread but how can u ever lose sight of its basic awesomeness?

expertise and subjectivity are not opposed, they're complementary. That combination is what ilx does best imo.

i don't deny it's a challenging thread but how can u ever lose sight of its basic awesomeness?

yeah this is how I feel

also matt dc is a really good poster to invoke here, that sense of a poster who carries authority not because of expertise per se but just because he wears his taste so well. I always feel like he is like the flag that people compete for, if matt is on my side in an argument then I have won.

tbf, others mentioned the goon thread, i was't talking specifically about that, more generally about ilm, and i'm not saying that as a dodge, i genuinely didn't mention it if you read back.

proper ilx subjectivity is like what matt dc or the patron saint tom ewing do, not "well i like it

i mean subjectivity is just a thing, the fact you feel comfortable with elevating it to this pious level where it can be invoked defensively says a lot in itself imo

i'm not invoking it defensively. i just think there's too much righteousness around. having an opinion is one thing, expressing it sharply is no prob with me either, but this sense of right and wrong actually is a barrier to decent conversation most of the time, it can be like reading a sport messageboard sometimes, especially with all the end of year stuff of late.

xpost i don't get the sense of "winning"...

i will say that there are posting habits on the rolling rap threads that have always annoyed me and that i could see putting people off from trying to follow them -- for instance posting just a youtube embed with a brief "this is great"-type statement with no real description or even mention of the artist or song title, so even if someone later wants to see if that song's been discussed, opening the whole thread and ctrl+f won't do you much good, and of course someone will give you shit if you end up posting something they already posted.

xpost i don't get the sense of "winning"...

― Ballboy to Afghanistan (LocalGarda), Saturday, January 26, 2013 12:17 PM (44 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I call bs on this, I have seen you in enough battles and was usually on your side too, so don't pretend you've been holding a peace sit-in the past decade.

yeah the youtube torrent can be pesky but again it's not indicative of some great contempt for the wider world, it's just some inefficient admin shit

ehhhh a lil bit, a lil bit

I call bs on this, I have seen you in enough battles and was usually on your side too, so don't pretend you've been holding a peace sit-in the past decade.

lol, true, HOWEVER, how many of these were about opinion not being fact? :)

When I talk about "winning" it's never on the assumption that I am fundamentally right and someone else is fundamentally wrong. My taste in music has changed enough over time that - contra, say, lex - I don't ultimately see that there is any particular virtue in me liking/disliking particular things, except at the most instinctive kneejerk reaction level. It's a game: can I make my experience of x seem more persuasively right-seeming than yours?

Personally don't find the goon thread off putting. Deej, Some dude, j0rdan and whiney will go hard at each other but lay off the other posters. I mean to tbf I only ever post "I liked that" or "Thanks for the link" etc so I'm a very boring poster but it's not like posting something like that gets a sarcastic "Good Post!" reply or anything. Also whenever the goon thread is brought up on ILX the impression given, and I've just perpetuated it, is that it's consist only of deej, whiney, some dude, j0rdan whereas there's also Rev, Number None, EZ, Sisilafami, Dayo, Spottie, Lex and many others.

xxp

xp right. and more often than not it's ironically actually the subjectivitists that are more unpersuadeable than the fanatics

if you can persuade me that's true i'll agree with you

xp right. and more often than not it's ironically actually the subjectivitists that are more unpersuadeable than the fanatics

― r|t|c, Saturday, January 26, 2013 12:53 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah, I think because a really compelling seeming argument actually shakes someone who likes to think their taste is built on something. If it's all meaninglessly subjective then one may as well be obstinate.

that's only theoretically true

as you can see i outsourced my persuasion department to tim years ago

yeah the pool of regulars has only seemed to grow over the past couple years, which is nice. but y'know, even when the bickering among the core group is directed inward, i dunno, i can still see that being an unwelcome sight to others.

the whole genesis of the rolling rap threads was that there was a real dearth of threads being started about individual hip hop records/artists compared to early ILM. i don't think the rolling threads should stop people from starting more specific threads, though, especially if they want to discuss something at length without first wading through a bunch of unrelated youtubes. the Kendrick thread seemed to be pretty successful in terms of people having a place to talk about a significant record. xp

there's two different meanings of subjective being used itt tho. "Subjective" as in a fervent advocate of one's own personal preference (which is I think necessary part of expertise - it's the part that makes expertise unpompous), and "subjective" as in it being difficult to compare matters of taste or individual experience, or rather that being used as a rhetorical technique to pull up the conversational barricades and saying "I win".

The first is great, the second shit.