Techno/House Bobbins of the past

"it has nothing to do with location. who ever said that? it has to do with culture. that culture is only located in a very specific location, so if that is what you mean then i guess it is true."

Same thing isn't though. You acknowledge as much when you say "you can get the feeling of the city in the records." Which as far as it goes is fine. Note that I wasn't saying that Detroit techno isn't distinct from other forms of techno, just that the notion it's automatically better than other stuff because of its, er, let's say geo-cultural roots, needs better back-up, and much better back-up than you're providing here. Really the sorts of techno and house that are related to Detroit (from Derrick May to Jeff Mills to ghetto tech to Theo Parrish) are massively diverse, and the notion that all of these nonetheless express some singular central truth about life in Detroit that is massively distinct from similar truths about life in other cities strikes me as really difficult to maintain. For example, Detroit techno strikes me as incredibly aspirational in mood; ghetto tech is the exact opposite - sure both musics can say things about the experience of being working class in Detroit, but the things they're saying are quite different.

I'm happy to accept that Detroit has been an incredibly fertile creative breeding ground for all sorts of producers of house and techno. And yes, the concentration of talent is deeply impressive. But talent calls to talent, and surely the very fact of moving in the same circles as other Detroit techno and house producers is as important if not more important than this whole spirit of the streets thing.

"jazz and soul are mostly american urban music, why would i not be able to understand them? that is the environment in which i grew up and continue to live. 2-step and jungle were so interesting to me because of their heavy leanings on american music, specifically jazz, hiphop, funk, and soul. i grew frustrated with the bits that didn't make sense to me such as the consistant movement of UK dance music into simplified dark grinding music, and i gave up on them."

So you'd accept me saying you fundamentally don't "get" jungle or 2-step and telling you to STFU about them? Would it be similarly legitimate for someone to say Detroit techno interested them insofar as it took cues from Kraftwerk, but went bad when it moved away from that?

"trying to define what creates that feeling is difficult, i am not sure that it is exactly possible to pinpoint it. really though, if you go to Detroit it all starts to make more sense, and the more time you spend there the more it makes sense. "

How convenient.

"i do not agree that everything about music can be analyzed scientifically. it has nothing to do with your brain, it has to do with how it FEELS. and if you can suddenly explain feeling and how it works, i am sure there are a bunch of scientists who would like to know exactly how to do that."

Ha ha you don't think there isn't a lot of scientific work in this area? Lots of people devote their entire careers to this sort of thing. And no, I don't pretend to analyse it scientifically, but it's not just a choice between science and religion you know.

"I know Pete Chambers who writes for mnml ssgs"

"ahhhh, now things are starting to make sense to me."

Well the last time I spoke to Pete he was stoked that you were writing something for the blog. I told him he was barking up the wrong tree and he defended you pretty massively.

"you dont think that Derrick May's work had that kind of influence in it? or Carl Craig's, even from the beginning? seriously man, i don't know what to say. i agree with your other choices here though, they make the influence a little more obvious in sound, but that was something that was there from the beginning."

So impliedly the link with jazz is not "obvious in sound" in most Detroit techno? Then why stress it so much, apart from the cultural cache such an analogy might provide? Why should people need to be told that Anthony Shakir is a huge jazzhead (although actually with the Shake stuff I know I can here it). Anyway I can hear some nods to jazz in a lot of first gen Detroit techno, just not enough that it's the first thing that springs to mind when I'm listening to Derrick May or whatever.

"since electronic dance music existed before Detroit techno, i do not understand how anyone would ever make that claim. i have never heard anyone make it. name me one person who has."

I wasn't attributing that opinion to you, although fair enough I guess it almost reads that way. i've heard and read many people claim this at least in relation to dance music that could be defined as "post-techno" (e.g. jungle, IDM, "hardcore" in the broad sense etc.), which is what i meant, though I expressed it sloppily I'll agree. You may agree with that more carefully worded version perhaps.

"so basically you just feel left out? i feel so sorry for you. don't be angry about it, be proactive. go visit detroit."

I don't feel left out, pipecock, I just think you make the whole experience of being connected to Detroit and the Detroit techno scene sound like a hideously empty thing, with no purpose other than to shore up your own ego. But I'm positive that that says more about you than it does about Detroit. To his credit, Mike hardly namedrops at all.

"so 500 years ago, before we could measure them, radio waves didn't exist? nor did sound waves? the idea that you can measure everything that is real is pretty ridiculous."

So you're claiming that soul is something scientific now?

"this is pretty obvious. but the problem lies in the fact that cats from the UK and Europe started making records. and in the beginning, they made a lot of good ones. but in time, the newer producers and deejays became less and less influenced by the original music and the sound started to shift into something much less funky and to me, much less interesting. it does not register with me culturally."

I'd like more specificity here pipecock. Like, does French house occur before or after the flight from Eden?

"good music is good music, but understanding that music beyond what you hear with your ears is pretty damn important. your ears can mishear things"

Personally I place my trust in my ears and then look for extra-musical information that can better explain what it is that my ears are hearing. Anything else just seems like asking to be indoctrinated.

GEIRCOCK

To hear people criticizing others for their music having no soul is disheartening. All music has the soul of its creator within it, and the environment from whence it came is there through osmosis. Its not about who slept on who's floor, and who knew who. The man who's track record consists of the sleeping on someone's sofa should be reticent about the criticizing of the creator of a piece of music. The piece of music has more soul than the sleeping on a floor

Its not about who you knew. Its about what you make yourself. This music comes from Sofia Detroit Dusseldorf Lyon Accra Rangoon and Lima, it always has it always will.

It is in Petre Inspirecu the way it is in Vassilis Tsitsanis and Francis Bebey its in all streets of all cities. Listen to this music it is in their souls. Listen to the music you make yourself you can hear it there too. Lets not talk of who stayed on our sofas. Lets not talk of dinner. Lets talk only of great music and how it inspires us in the making of our own music and in other things and remember what it is we love.

To criticize the creation of something is one thing, to say it is without soul is perhaps the most heinous of insults

^^^ long overdue

there's a toxicity to dance music discussions of late, at least in the small corners of the net I read.

where's the youth/fun/joy/life? all you see is massive protracted discussions and if people really want to send a message or "fight the good fight", WHATEVER music they like or whatever music that is then please start writing with some verve and enthusiasm and smash this "a bunch of concerned dudes discussing history" thing that's built up.

I mean seriously......Omar S to Ame to fucking Tiesto, any music deserves better than this, treat it with the magic and passion it deserves if you actually have the time to spend all day talking about it online.

God knows I currently don't but everybody needs to. If you have information, share it, make it as accessible as possible, spread it, talk about it, bring it to people. It's really fucking grim reading around the net at the moment.

For me, the notions of authenticity and purity that are being alluded to and assigned to Detroit techno above are wrong-headed. Like culture more generally, all specific scenes and genres of music are influenced by a myriad of different sources, and in turn go on to influence other types of music. To say that any one type of music is "pure" and that subsequent related genres are somehow degraded or bastardised is to kind of miss the point.

These may be truisms, but worth repeating I think.

It's the Burial thread all over again

I remember getting slammed for telling people that you wouldn't get it unless you had been to Detroit.

-- Display Name

you probably got slammed for this because it doesn't logically make sense. aren't mills' big stated influences over the last 10 years commes des garcons, black and white silent movies and conceptual art? isn't his day-job running a european-style clothing boutique featuring belgian and japanese designers?

there is obviously so much more to the guy's intellectual profile than "oh hey i'm a just brother bringing the realness from detroit" that it seems nasty and reductive to boil it down to that.

also reminds me of simon reynold's great QED-bodyslam on kirk degiorgio: "don't you realize he made hard-and-fast friends w/ the detroit crew because those guys basically aspired to be white european aesthetes LOL"

"i think the problem is that in the US, house and techno culture existed before rave culture. they were their own stand alone cultures with roots and customs. in the UK and Europe, their music was imported and used in a completely foreign culture. you can see the classic Detroit and Chicago deejays discuss this in many of their old interviews."

^^^ urgent & key, but all music does this to some extent. it's a dialogue!

http://www.plong.com/MusicCatalog/V/VA%20-%20Tresor%20Compilation%20vol.2%20-%20Berlin-Detroit%20A%20Techno%20Alliance/VA%20-%20Tresor%20Compilation%20vol.2%20-%20Berlin-Detroit%20A%20Techno%20Alliance.jpg

Detroit Techno could only come from Detroit.
Chicago House could only come from Chicago.
UK Hardcore could only come from the UK.
Sheffield Bleep could only come from Sheffield.
Memphis Soul from Memphis.
New Jersey House from New Jersey.
Eurodance from Frankfurt.
Italo Disco from Italy (and some other places).
Munich Disco from Munich.

I really don't understand what there is to be won in claiming a certain music developped at a certain place and a certain time. It did. So what?

i came to say this thread sunk from being a celebration of wonderful music that has touched us into some pedantic petty bullshit, but then 24 unagi plaza came and said the same with much better words.

anyways - soul ii soul 'african dance'! dope!

it's so slow

ok so i listened to contact special again and it is excellent so i need to amend my comment upthread.

the narrative arc is abduction/levitation/lift-off (first half or so) followed by struggle, inquisitiveness and finally, a kind of acceptance or contentment (not acquiescence). the music is mostly economical mills (if you want to talk comme des garçons, rei kawakubo's mottos are "strength" and "never repeat yourself"; mills' might also be strength and a kind of refinement through repetition and deep knowledge of his reduced musical tools.) the sonic palette is is mostly 909s and trademark millsian synth leads (the phrasal stuff i gush about), but there are a few housier cuts/cut-ups. nothing feels as willfully portentous as some of the soundtrack work and the album does really flow together contrary to my "it would work better as the singles" comment. it would have been exciting to collect the singles as there's a kind of chapter aspect to the flow.

my friend was at that jeff mills talk at Sonar and apparently he genuinely believes the age of aquarius is going to arrive in 2069. and that techno is paving the way for it.

Right now I have an overwhelming urge to listen to Timewriter...

This review of Sonar over at FACT FACT amused me. Proves that the Detroit camp are capable of spouting just as much bull as Richie and his minus cohorts:

The other big deal on the first proper Sónar by Night was M—nus Records presents Contakt. I’m not sure anyone who wasn’t actively involved knew everything that was going on, but the basic premise was that Magda, Gaiser, Troy Pierce, Mark Houle and Heartthrob rotated between their laptops, a bit like when you played round the world table tennis at school, and Richie Hawtin made new tunes up from different bits of their tunes on his cube. It was total Computer World, a bit like when Hot Chip make the songs up in front of you, but a thousand times more grandiose, space age and camp, right down to the outfits in the promo shots. Compare it to Jeff Mills and Mike Banks the next night, whose X-102 return was billed as ‘a conceptual tour de force which explores all the aspects of this mysterious planet (Saturn), including its rings and moons, at the classic co-ordinates of UR’ and actually resulted in a guff performance (Mills reckons that for electronic music to develop ‘we need to stop dancing, it gets in the way’), and it’s clear which techno luminary's having more fun with his vast amounts of spare time.

Mills reckons that for electronic music to develop ‘we need to stop dancing, it gets in the way’

FFS x 10,000,000,000,000

I was about to duck in and ask where just really enjoying dancing to music comes in, and I think that just got non-answered in brave new ways

Proves that the Detroit camp are capable of spouting just as much bull as Richie and his minus cohorts

c'mon you must've read some D May quotes from '89-'90?

but i wish we could talk more about specific old tracks here and what makes them so distinctly great (inc technical/musical talk, usually fun to geek on), as opposed to this wider picture stuff which is pretty circular

Start it!

(not meant to sound snide or anything--you know I always like what you have to say).

i'm including myself in that 'we', sadly

http://www.scribd.com/doc/3242075/The-Disco-Handbook

well okay let's talk joy here: i put 'girl from botany bay' on my ipod shuffle, and it came on when i was in a shit mood, and i was elevated all over again.

also, i've been listening to Lindstrom again because of the new album. and i can't decide whether he's a totally amazing one-trick pony or has actually progressed quite a bit in the last few years.

Wow, thank God I was away last week. . .

either way the environmental mix on this kills.
Lovely house tool which may or may not sample Koyanisqatii, got it for a dollar last winter and it's great to put on top of everything.

From the Beatport sample you're damn right. Good find.

Basic Channel just released its second CD of BC stuff. Not sure if that's noteworthy or not.

not really sure where to bobbins this but in chicago a couple songs that seem huge around here from the past couple years maybe? or maybe older. im bad with years. anyway these get played on all kinds of radio stations around here, and im wondering why theres no mention of for example:

craig loftus - jimmy boom

or other tracks like the house edit of natalie cole "tell me all about it," or green velvet's "shake and pop" which are so superhuge in chicago but dont really get posted about and im kinda unsure where to post about them anyway

sorry thats spelled 'loftis' but still

and song title is technically 'jimmy go boom' but still

its a james brown edit and theres a sample here
http://mp3.juno.co.uk/MP3/SF267750-01-01-01.mp3
but u have to copy and paste the link

im digging this a lot
http://www.slide.com/r/IE4DJiKavD-DgKDazmUvsqT9ZtNcusJC?previous_view=lt_embedded_url

unfolding with an electricity that's--forbid the sacrilege--Dylanesque.

doesnt he mean 'forbid the cliche'

oops rong thread

http://www.scribd.com/doc/3242075/The-Disco-Handbook

-- Display Name, Tuesday, July 1, 2008 8:47 AM

Deej have you heard the Gant Man version of Green Velvet's "Walk"???!?!?!!

can someone help me with a track id... and this is going to be a pretty vague description... zip played it at panoramabar on friday towards closing. very emotional\detroit sounding, epic pad sweeps, then an extended coda section with a voice repeatedly saying something along the lines of "you can hit me, you can hurt me, but still... i have a dream". anybody??

nah i hadn't but that sounds great! gant-man DJs every saturday at one club til 5 AM in chicago though, ive heard him spin a couple times but i really need to go back - the place is right in my old neighborhood and aside from a rough crowd its pretty cool - not a huge club or anything and a good mix of rap and house and dancehall etc

lol @ yelp reviews for the venue though:

07/06/2008

Ugh! Is all I can say about this place.

If you are into coochie popping and reenacting the scene from SNL with the Roxy Boys then go here. Seriously it was sad to see so many men bumping and grinding one girl. Then again these women are so desperate they allow that. Such class! Imagine flies on a poop and you will have this place.

Say whatever you want. This place is nasty. One star is too much in my opinion. Nice staff though.

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Lulz that has always been my suspicion about juke/ghettotech kinda places...

they do get a fair number of women actually but its def got a piranha feeding frenzy vibe when the girls hit the floor

oh and btw tim when i said 'that sounds great!' i did mean i hunted down a sample and listened! it sounds real smooth for juke stuff

can someone help me with a track id... and this is going to be a pretty vague description... zip played it at panoramabar on friday towards closing. very emotional\detroit sounding, epic pad sweeps, then an extended coda section with a voice repeatedly saying something along the lines of "you can hit me, you can hurt me, but still... i have a dream". anybody??

Could be Mike Grant's 'The Struggle of My People' on Moods & Grooves, probably the Mr.G mix. It's got a sample of Maya Angelou reciting her poem 'I Rise' on it

http://www.juno.co.uk/products/1217685-02.htm

nice

eurgh was trying to post this in chicago house thread on noise board but im still banned because zzz so i'll post it here in response to vahid:

"i'm satisfied is getting remixed and played out all over the place here, my copy is the underdog edit version, theres also a dj emmanuels remix off that dj pharris legends of house vol. 1 mix i posted about on the bobbins thread"

is that a pretty good representation of the party scene in chicago?

(cause those people in the vid are old!)

although to be fair most people at west coast house events are about my age and older, i.e. 30+

the vid in question: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toRig6S5JZM