The Ramones : Classic Or Dud

You're very much OFF the money there, Pinefox. Will explain why in detail later on.

Can't quite figure out whether that's a putdown of the Clash, or the Ramones, or neither, or both - and I'm not even European !

They became an institution for a reason, Mike. They admittedly worked the gimmick angle (certainly no more so than, say, the much-fawned over White Stripes), but I risk flogging the very obvious point by saying they did it *FIRST*! Respect is due. As for frankness, I don't believe anyone is saying their later work is as significant as their seminal first few albums.

To me this is so far wide of the mark that it completely misses what early-Ramones are all about. The analogies with Brill building and early 60's girlpop songcraft has been trotted out so often wrt The Ramones that it's tempting to dismiss it out-of-hand. There is some truth in it though - I can hear the Shangri-La's, say, in I Wanna Be Your Boyfriend or Babysitter. That's not to say that this automatically makes the Ramones good, of course.

But they're better than good - they're masters. Their best songs are great because they are lean and simple - there's nothing that shouldn't be there. Couple this with a simple melodic hook(nothing fancy - 4 chords max. and another 2 for the middle 8) and a propulsive beat, and you have something irresistable. Add some elements of The Ramones 'own world' imagery (pick from : NY street images, retards, 'nam casualties, glue, girls)and you have genius.

Take "Glad to see you Go" from Leave Home - straight into a Beach Boys/Eddie Cochrane morphed melody and just listen to the way that the song shifts gear slightly on lines 3 and 4 of the verse as Tommy closes the high-hat a touch under the chords and melody. The shift into the chorus is sublime and the sheer rush as it comes back to the last verse from the middle 8 ("I need somebody good, I need a miracle") is like a ride in the space shuttle - on the outside.

Take "Rockaway Beach" - another point on the curve linking "Summer in the City", " Dancing in the Street" and "Baby on more Time". Again - great chorus, great lyrics ("Chewin out a rhythm on my bubblegum") and a sense of PLACE. In less than 3 minutes you feel exactly what it's like to be a teenager in baking hot NY - and you feel it every single time you hear it. That's great songwriting, Pinefox.

Rockaway, Glad..., Listen to My Heart, 53rd and 3rd, You Should Never Have Opened That Door are equals of "Please, Please Me", "California Girls", "My Generation" ..... the list goes on....if you can look past the "punk" thing which is really a red herring as far as The Ramones are concerned.

I guess it all depends on what you look for in a song - they're not Burt or Jimmy Webb, but they tell a story, crank up the adrenaline, and make their own world for 3 mins for EVERY SINGLE TRACK on the first 4 albums. That's classic.

I am still not particularly convinced about the overall point. In fact, come to think of it, I'm not at all convinced. But to be reasonable about this, I'm going to have to leave it till I've listened to the Ramones again.

But, Dr.C makes such a good case for Da Ramones that I'm thinking of checking them out again.

But part2, Jason makes a very interesting point that almost gets buried: the puritanism of much punk. I feel it's a key to why I don't like much of the stuff (although most of the time I think of punk as anorexic - no bottom ;) Will go up on the mountain and meditate on this insight.

Which kind of explains why I like so few American bands. Seems that whatever genre they work in, there's always that wide Rock streak that suffuses it all and kind of obliterates whatever else they're trying to do.

OH-OH-I-LOVE-HER-SO-O-OH.

So I went to see what I thought was going to be a bunch of dodgy old punks on Saturday night and ended up seeing a dodgy old Scottish Ramones (this is a good thing).

Then I told my son (Mark, 5 and three quarters) that "Brian's band sound like the Ramones" and his jaw dropped and he said "THE RAMONES? REALLY? COOL!" and I think it's cool as fuck that my kid thinks it's cool that someone his dad knows is in a band that sounds a wee bit like The Ramones.

Then I listened to It's Alive this morning on the way to work and it reasserted itself as not only the best live album ever, but possibly one of the BEST ANYTHINGS EVER!

C.L.A.S.S.I.C.

Anyway, Weird Tales of the Ramones, anyone got it yet and want to tell me why I really need to buy it regardless of what I already own?

This is looking pretty classic:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ramones-Its-Alive-1974-1996/dp/B000EGEVZK

Finally, the It's Alive footage on DVD, with about, er, 100 other tracks!

DVD1:
-------
CBGB New York, NY (9/15/74)
Now I Wanna Sniff Some Glue
I Don't Wanna Go Down To The Basement
Judy Is A Punk

Max’s Kansas City New York, NY (4/18/76)
I Wanna Be Your Boyfriend
53rd and 3rd

The Club Cambridge, MA (5/12/76)
Chain Saw

Max’s Kansas City New York, NY (10/8/76)
Havana Affair
Listen To My Heart

My Father’s Place Roslyn, NY (4/13/77)
I Remember You
Carbona Not Glue

CBGB New York, NY (6/11/77)
Blitzkrieg Bop
Sheena Is A Punk Rocker
Beat On The Brat
Now I Wanna Sniff Some Glue
Rockaway Beach
Cretin Hop
Oh Oh I Love Her So
Today Your Love, Tomorrow The World

The Second Chance Ann Arbor, MI (6/26/77)
Rockaway Beach
Carbona Not Glue

The Ivanhoe Theater Chicago, IL (7/6/77)
Pinhead
Suzy Is A Headbanger

The Armadillo Austin, TX (7/14/77) Early Show
Commando
I Wanna Be Your Boyfriend

The Armadillo Austin, TX (7/14/77) Late Show
Now I Wanna Be A Good Boy
53rd & 3rd
Today Your Love, Tomorrow The World

Liberty Hall Houston, TX (7/15/77)
Loudmouth
I Remember You
Gimme Gimme Shock Treatment

Liberty Hall Houston, TX (7/16/77)
Oh Oh I Love Her So
Today Your Love, Tomorrow The World

Don Kirshner’s Rock Concert L.A., CA (8/9/77)
Loudmouth
Judy Is A Punk
Glad To See You Go
Gimme Gimme Shock Treatment

The Camera Mart Stages New York, NY (9/3/77)
Swallow My Pride
Pinhead
Sheena Is A Punk Rocker

It’s Alive, The Rainbow Theatre London (12/31/77)
Blitzkrieg Bop
I Wanna Be Well
Glad To See You Go
You're Gonna Kill That Girl
Commando
Havana Affair
Cretin Hop
Listen To My Heart
I Don't Wanna Walk Around With You
Pinhead
Do You Wanna Dance?
Now I Wanna Be A Good Boy
Now I Wanna Sniff Some Glue
We're A Happy Family

Bonus features:
- Dee Dee and Joey - The Beginning (Interview)
- Tommy - Forest Hills High School (Interview)
- Danny Fields - Revelations (Interview)
- Joey & Dee Dee - Influences (Interview)
- Joey & Danny - Artistic Growth (Interview)
- Violence? (Interview)
- What is Punk? (Interview)
- Tommy - How I learned to play drums and we got a record deal (Interview)
- Dee Dee - Coffee And Cigarettes (Interview)
- Johnny - Hard To Stop (Interview)
- Argentina - The First Time (Interview)
- Mandagsborgen (Interview)
- Sha Na Na Shenanigans (Interview)
- It's Not My Place (In The 9 To 5 World) (Video)
- Somebody Put Something In My Drink (Rare Video) (Rough Cut)
- Photo Galleries (Also Ramones fans got chance to send photos taken by them to the DVD).

DVD2:
-------
Musikladen Bremen, Germany (9/13/78)
Rockaway Beach
Teenage Lobotomy
Blitzkrieg Bop
Don't Come Close
I Don't Care
She's The One
Sheena Is A Punk Rocker
Cretin Hop
Listen To My Heart
I Don't Wanna Walk Around With You
Pinhead

The Old Grey Whistle Test London (9/19/78)
Don't Come Close
She's The One
Go Mental

Top of the Pops London (9/28/78)
Don't Come Close

Oakland, CA (12/28/78)
I'm Against It
Needles And Pins

San Francisco Civic Center, S.F., CA (6/9/79)
I Want You Around
I'm Affected
California Sun

The Old Grey Whistle Test London (1/15/79
Rock 'N' Roll High School
Do You Remember Rock 'N' Roll Radio?

Top of the Pops London (1/31/80)
Baby I Love You

Sha Na Na L.A., CA (5/19/80)
Rock 'N' Roll High School

Mandagsborsen Stockholm, Sweden (10/26/81)
We Want The Airwaves

TVE Musical Express Madrid, Spain (11/17/81)
This Business Is Killing Me
All Quiet On The Eastern Front

US Festival San Bernardino, CA (9/3/82)
Do You Remember Rock 'N' Roll Radio?
Gimme Gimme Shock Treatment
Rock 'N' Roll High School
I Wanna Be Sedated
Beat On The Brat
The KKK Took My Baby Away
Here Today, Gone Tomorrow
Chinese Rocks
Teenage Lobotomy

The Old Grey Whistle Test London (2/26/85)
Wart Hog
Chasing The Night

Obras Sanitarias, Buenos Aires, Argentina (2/3/87)
Blitzkrieg Bop
Freak Of Nature
Crummy Stuff
Love Kills
I Don't Care
Too Tough To Die
Mama's Boy

Provinssirock Festival, Seinäjoki, Finland (6/4/88)
I Don't Want You Anymore
Weasel Face
Garden Of Serenity
I Just Want To Have Something To Do
Surfin' Bird
Cretin Hop
Somebody Put Something In My Drink
We're A Happy Family

R.I.T., Rochester, NY (10/8/88)
Do You Remember Rock 'N' Roll Radio
Wart Hog

Rolling Stone Club Milan, Italy (3/16/92)
Psycho Therapy
I Believe In Miracles
I Wanna Live
My Brain Is Hanging Upside Down (Bonzo Goes To Bitburg)
Pet Sematary
Animal Boy
Pinhead

Top of the Pops London (6/29/95)
I Don't Wanna Grow Up

River Plate Stadium, Buenos Aires, Argentina (3/16/96)
I Wanna Be Sedated
R.A.M.O.N.E.S.
Blitzkrieg Bop

(also, LOL at those reviewers going on about this without looking up the tracklist)

Oof -- might have to pick this up.

wow, overkill but I gotta have it. love dr. c on this thread, can't believe i never read it before.

R.I.T., Rochester, NY (10/8/88)

hmm. i saw them there in may of either '88 or '89. but given their touring at the time i guess maybe they played there twice in a year.

OMG hello birthday present!

It's not like they were reinventing themselves every night

No, but live they were an overwhelming force — the way they just barreled through one song after another with just that lightning fast countdown in between, the cumulative effect was crushing in a way few other bands could match. I saw them late (1989; I can't remember whether it was this show or the next night, but either way it was right before my 18th birthday) but it was like having a wall fall on you.

It's Alive was a revelation to me when I finally heard it, I realized ohhh hardcore was just the Ramones live

In fact, there was no punk when their first album came out.

I did try and explain this to said relative but no dice.

Always amazes me that Johnny and Joey apparently didn't speak for about two decades while being in the same band. Must have been an amazing atmosphere in the tour bus.

Side note: the show I saw was at the New Ritz on 54th Street, aka the former home of Studio 54. Two very different versions of Seventies New York colliding...

also the mark of a great live band is the experience with you actually were there in the room with them, not whether or not that came across on a live album or whether they even had a live album at all

a great live band also doesn't have to "reinvent" itself onstage every night, that's poor Deadhead thinking

Yeah it’s really too bad we never heard the ramones jazz odyssey live

"Dach Stah"(12:34)

I'll admit I have never heard It's Alive

trust me, it slays

https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgexekUm5v3LnXsZE-hx-DSP4_uNGcZZQYzl-sDOpYsX3Amw0eDKlkhqColQv1li-ecnx4FoYXt0fagMv7Uqs2kMRtLZ36fMNHa2GZRaeXKCZAJpKOyg8HK00kkhDnSCkiuw1Fv3mMNojk/s1600/tumblr_lyogdez7Qm1qzezj5o1_500.jpg

Wasn’t Vincent price or Truman capote or someone at the show too?

no I must be tripping

Well, I'm too young to have seen the Ramones live (in their prime), so the live albums are all I have to go on, and I couldn't see ever choosing to listen to a live Ramones album over a studio album.

The snark about jazz odyssey and the Dead raises an interesting point, though: what is the purpose of a live album by a rock / pop band that mostly sticks to the script, so to speak, as opposed to, like, Neil Young and the Dead and Dylan?

For what it's worth, I feel the same way about the Stones as I do about the Ramones. I remember having a discussion with a friend who devotedly bought every archival Stones live release, and he couldn't understand why I just didn't get the appeal, despite how much I love the Stones. And before anyone says it, yes there are bands (other than the Dead) for whom live albums will always beat, or at least equal, the studio work. I'm thinking about The Who and maybe Cheap Trick, but maybe Live at Leeds and At Budokan are two exceptions that prove the rule?

Not mounting an argument here, in fact I never really bought bootlegs of concerts, so maybe this thread has made me realize that I'm just not that into live albums? Again, only talking about rock music here.

I will check out It's Alive, though!

I can't imagine needing any more than one Ramones live album, but that one live album beats the studio albums any day

The snark about jazz odyssey and the Dead raises an interesting point, though: what is the purpose of a live album by a rock / pop band that mostly sticks to the script, so to speak, as opposed to, like, Neil Young and the Dead and Dylan?

I kind of agree with this to an extent. There are many metal bands, for example, who do not change their music in any meaningful way onstage, so I don't see the point of listening to live recordings, except maybe to hear songs in a different context because of the way the set list is structured. But then there are bands for whom the live recording of a song is absolutely the definitive version, like say the version of "Victim of Changes" on Judas Priest's live album Unleashed in the East. Once you've heard that, there's no going back to the studio version (on Sad Wings of Destiny). Sometimes a band just has so much energy live that their live album is just better than their studio work. Other bands, exactly the opposite. I saw Metallica twice and had a blast both times, but every live recording of them I've ever heard has sucked. (Spare me your jokes about Lars Ulrich's drumming. He's fine. Their live work just doesn't translate to tape, for some reason.)

I don’t see it as either or, something I want the bloody viscera of a live show, sometimes I just want the orderly studio

live ramones always makes me think of a good convo with an old record store coworker-
him: (puts on live ramones album)
(album plays for about 15 mins)
me: (slightly annoyed) every song starts with 'ONETWOTHREEFOUR!!' ???????
him: (angry look, resigned tone, intentional eye contact) you know them well.

he was joking of course. the repetition is the fun!

I forget where I learned this - maybe it was in the End of The Century documentary? - but supposedly Dee Dee would count off the same -1-2-3-4, in the same tempo, regardless of the song! I love that.

Agree with unperson re: live albums by metal bands. Bands like Meshuggah are mostly using triggers live anyway, right? So why would you want a compromised, less polished version of the same music?

It doesn't necessarily follow that a great live act is going to produce a great live album you're going to want to listen to all the time.

... though in this case it does.

Always amazes me that Johnny and Joey apparently didn't speak for about two decades while being in the same band. Must have been an amazing atmosphere in the tour bus.

I think this is in the Ramones documentary, which was probably the first time I saw them interviewed, but IIRC Marc Bell says once in a while, he'd speak up and tell a joke, just to lighten the atmosphere, and everyone would bust out laughing, but then go right back to stone cold silence. He tried!

Reading a little bit about Dee Dee’s history and trying to parse “today your love”

“Shock trooper in a stupor” - a reference to his dad (wiki says he was alcoholicc) - or to himself ? I thought “shock trooper” could scan as a German reference but His dad was American I think

“Little German boy being pushed around” scans as autobiography

“I’m a Nazi baby” maybe the way he self deprecating described his childhood?”otherwise puzzled. Maybe his mom was right wing?

Maybe he talks about this in one of the books?

supposedly Dee Dee would count off the same -1-2-3-4, in the same tempo, regardless of the song

this will never not be funny.

OTM

and then he does 1 2 3 4 in German for Today Your Love

I find Dee Dee so fascinating. Tragic in some ways, but what a weird kind of savant.

Yeah, great description.

really a classic "whole is greater than the parts" band until he left, even with the drummer change

all this 1234 talk always makes me think of this:

https://fakeestates.bandcamp.com/album/a-mechanical-joey

Only other countdown that, um, comes close, is "Roadrunner."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPCHU-cBWwk

Longer version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_1sA0PVArw

omg @ that Bill Orcutt link xxxp

https://f4.bcbits.com/img/0032718830_10.jpg

lol

Only other countdown that, um, comes close, is "Roadrunner."

Apparently this actually inspired by the Ramones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJ9Stc9ONyY

I'm tres fond of this one too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQCSeFBpQYs

all this 1234 talk always makes me think of this:

https://fakeestates.bandcamp.com/album/a-mechanical-joey

― fpsa, Monday, May 27, 2024 6:17 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

I bought this record when Orcutt put it up on his bandcamp, didn't really do any research or know anything about it, when it arrived I was in the middle of a terrible summer flu, it was hot as hell outside and I was fever-ish, just feeling terrible and in that kind dazed brain fog you get and I put this record on, kind of loud, and lay on my couch listening and I wasn't a hundred precent certain if the record I was hearing was real or if it was a fever dream or what. But I did listen to both sides and it ended up being kind of the perfect way to experience it.

The Ramones are great.

Also the "sequel" he did is even better (though no Ramones content) https://fakeestates.bandcamp.com/album/the-anxiety-of-symmetry

I find Dee Dee so fascinating. Tragic in some ways, but what a weird kind of savant.

I read Dee Dee's autobio recently and it was one of those drug memoirs that is 98% about dope and 2% about other stuff, the fact that he ever wrote any songs was dispatched with in a few stray lines, kind of amazing that he could have so little to say about it

Thread got me to turn on It's Alive again... the 2019 remaster is a huge improvement! And 3 extra discs.... eeeeee

Also came across a cute story about ducks being fed at Dee Dee's grave
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/dee-dee-ramone-ducks-1268808/

Remember all those years ago when It's Alive was an import-only LP.

yes, yes I do

I guess everybody always comments on that so it's probably mentioned already upthread at least once.

Tommy was the best drummer

yes

Ya think?

I Don't Wanna Think

This must have been posted on one of the Ramones' threads before, but just in case:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDWytErRL1k

(Putting aside the categorization...)