Year-End Critics' Polls 2012

that was xposts

In fairness, R&B gets probably more hostility and outright dismissal than pretty much any other mainstream genre.

metal?

if i got annoyed every time someone harped on about mastodon and no other metal band, what would be the point in that?

Except metal, and country, and world music, and I'm sure even more.

xpost

In fairness, R&B gets probably more hostility and outright dismissal than pretty much any other mainstream genre.

from which people? statement means nothing without specifying

r&b is massively popular.

r'n'b saturates the musical landscape where i live. it's very much what most people listen to when i'm out and about. even in my market town there's a dedicated r'n'b club.

a lot of u guys are being hella defensive. idgaf what R&B you like or dont, but surely you recognize that there is this thing called "cool," and some very good music is not very cool, and is overlooked because of it

a lot of u guys are being hella defensive. idgaf what R&B you like or dont, but surely you recognize that there is this thing called "cool," and some very good music is not very cool, and is overlooked because of it

loads of good music is overlooked, but people's definition of "cool" varies massively from person to person.

don't know why someone simultaneously would hate "hipsters" and complain they don't like the same music as them, if they're indeed worthy of disdain.

what very good music is not very cool?

i mean god, the idea that all music we value should get "equal dues" or something... how on earth could someone ever reconcile what that even means? it's fucking ludicrous.

It's because you hear R&B all over the place that there's this really vehement dislike of it. I'm not even remotely talking about people who might in any way code as 'hipsters' here, just mainstream people I've met over the years, loads of them, who are into fairly straight-down-the-line indie or dance music who just fucking hate it, the very essence of it.

You probably get exactly the same thing with country in the US. Metal is not a mainstream genre.

wanting everyone in the world to like the same music as you is bonkers, can we at least agree on that?

It's because you hear R&B all over the place that there's this really vehement dislike of it. I'm not even remotely talking about people who might in any way code as 'hipsters' here, just mainstream people I've met over the years, loads of them, who are into fairly straight-down-the-line indie or dance music who just fucking hate it, the very essence of it.

because to them it's the mainstream, just as to someone here pitchfork is the mainstream, it's all just perception of what the status quo is and the natural human tendency to distance oneself from it as best one can with the tools available.

it's not as if hating the very essence of a music genre isn't done on ilm all the time.

loads of good music is overlooked, but people's definition of "cool" varies massively from person to person.

don't know why someone simultaneously would hate "hipsters" and complain they don't like the same music as them, if they're indeed worthy of disdain.

― Heterocyclic ring ring (LocalGarda), Thursday, December 6, 2012 10:57 AM (37 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i don't hate hipsters! but i think its fair to say that elle varner's refill is not popular w/ hipsters & that this says something

this doesn't have anything to do w/ my particular tastes; i like ty$ and i think he could easily become hipster-cool whereas "refill" doesnt really feel like it has that potential but i think it's an amazing song too. there is a certain quality about some music that is independent of good or bad that ppl gravitate towards or away from

there is a certain quality about some music that is independent of good or bad that ppl gravitate towards or away from

fair enough. though i think it's fairly arbitrary what music gains this quality and why... "cool" music has a tiny bit more in common at a given time than "uncool" music but still think it's arbitrary.

because to them it's the mainstream, just as to someone here pitchfork is the mainstream, it's all just perception of what the status quo is and the natural human tendency to distance oneself from it as best one can with the tools available

Yeah I agree with that, even if a lot of the people I was referring to were probably Kaiser Chiefs or Coldplay fans there's still that oppositional thing going on.

it's not as if hating the very essence of a music genre isn't done on ilm all the time

I totally agree. I still think it's more vehement and possibly nastier when R&B and to a lesser extent rap are concerned, anything that codes as 'chavvy' to enough people in the UK really.

there is a certain quality about some music that is independent of good or bad that ppl gravitate towards or away from

yeah it's funny how people seem to be pretending that things like image, which other acts an artist positions themselves with, PR angle etc have no effect on who gets hype or buzz

kalenna, elle varner, jade alston, keyshia cole, nikkiya, lyrica anderson, estelle, nina sky, even (relatively) dawn richard <= little to no buzz this year even though they made music that was as good or better than ocean, weeknd, miguel, jeremih

also r&b has no "chart" presence atm and has not had any for years

fair enough, matt, i agree with you really. i just feel the need to play devil's advocate whenever this notion of the unthinking masses is invoked. it is uglier, i agree, when it's about people perceived as lesser or whatever.

kalenna, elle varner, jade alston, keyshia cole, nikkiya, lyrica anderson, estelle, nina sky, even (relatively) dawn richard <= little to no buzz this year even though they made music that was as good or better than ocean, weeknd, miguel, jeremih

do you have a way of proving their music was better?

does elle varner need buzz?

FWIW I am pretty much talking about everyone except hipsters here. If you go into the right kind of hipster bar in East London you're probably more likely to hear Cassie or Ciara than a lot of indier R&B.

just mainstream people I've met over the years, loads of them, who are into fairly straight-down-the-line indie or dance music who just fucking hate it, the very essence of it.

mainstream people hating a mainstream genre more than any non-mainstream genre? (for argument's sake let's put entire genres into pot a or b)

lots of metal has bled into mainstream in the past tho. maybe r&b has become less mainstream (can only think of a handful of artists still big in this respect e.g. beyonce, usher...) in the way metal has...in the way every clear-cut genre or idea has?

kalenna, elle varner, jade alston, keyshia cole, nikkiya, lyrica anderson, estelle, nina sky, even (relatively) dawn richard <= little to no buzz this year even though they made music that was as good or better than ocean, weeknd, miguel, jeremih

Hmmm. There might be something other than image and positioning that differentiates one lot of artists from the other.

hipsters are sexist!

now proven by science

well they'll always have the manic pixie dream girl of the indie-r&b set solange

Hmmm. There might be something other than image and positioning that differentiates one lot of artists from the other.

you mean that some are empirically good and others empirically bad?

you mean that some are empirically good and others empirically bad?

― Heterocyclic ring ring (LocalGarda), Thursday, December 6, 2012 11:16 AM (31 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lex isnt being helpful by arguing that the underrated ones are better than the overrated ones but i think there's a middle ground here where we acknowledge that it's not some magical 'the cream rises to the top' reasoning that ppl looove the weeknd and ignore elle varner

Fwiw it makes total sense that FACT of all publications would go for one lot and not the other because it's screamingly obvious that they and a sizeable chunk of their readers go a bundle on anything that's dark and moody and smokey and don't really seem to rate anything that's lighter or more upbeat or might involve girls sounding like they're enjoying themselves.

lex isnt being helpful by arguing that the underrated ones are better than the overrated ones but i think there's a middle ground here where we acknowledge that it's not some magical 'the cream rises to the top' reasoning that ppl looove the weeknd and ignore elle varner

it's a combo of factors that's pretty hard to extricate. and it's different for lots of different people. it is a bit unfair to start speculating about people's tastes like this, not least given the actual listenership of these acts does not divide neatly into male critic pitchfork readers v whoever else...

Oh this lone album is sweeeet btw

Top five, Grammy-nominated Elle Varner had little-to-no buzz?

kalenna, elle varner, jade alston, keyshia cole, nikkiya, lyrica anderson, estelle, nina sky, even (relatively) dawn richard <= little to no buzz this year even though they made music that was as good or better than ocean, weeknd, miguel, jeremih

I listen to and like almost all of the artists in Lex's pro-camp (except I'd never be so nuts as to argue that Lyrica Anderson is more worthwhile than Miguel or Frank Ocean), but it seems like what's going on here is that critics/the masses/"hipsters" or whatever are drawn to singularlity, artists whose aesthetic or songwriting voices are so different or distinct from their peers that they can't help but stand out. I don't see why that's such a conspiracy.

I also don't see how it's different from the metal, country or alternative rock bands that get the most buzz. The ones that are uniquely different are the ones that get the most shine.

I also don't see how it's different from the metal, country or alternative rock bands that get the most buzz. The ones that are uniquely different are the ones that get the most shine.

don't think this is true at all

<I>artists whose aesthetic or songwriting voices are so different or distinct from their peers that they can't help but stand out</i>

Or back story or PR angle

like i'm not way familiar with everyone lex listed but nikkiya, nina sky, dawn richard --> all "artists whose aesthetic or songwriting voices are different or distinct from their peers"

I think that's true of Dawn Richard. But Nikkiya, who I love, is more than anything just an exceptional example of the form. That's great, but artists breaking from the form is always going to be the flashier draw for a lot of people

(Nina Sky doesn't count because I don't think most of what they do is all that good)

Um I'm on my phone and can't post links but if you think Nikkiya is just standard r+b, er, wow

xpost Lex, I don't go into any hipster bars in East London. Can you recommend any real ale pubs in North London where I will hear the R&B you commend?

I listen to and like almost all of the artists in Lex's pro-camp (except I'd never be so nuts as to argue that Lyrica Anderson is more worthwhile than Miguel or Frank Ocean), but it seems like what's going on here is that critics/the masses/"hipsters" or whatever are drawn to singularlity, artists whose aesthetic or songwriting voices are so different or distinct from their peers that they can't help but stand out. I don't see why that's such a conspiracy.

― Evan R, Thursday, December 6, 2012 11:37 AM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this distinction is nonsense btw

i know thats what theyd like to think they perceive

wait, so now we're not even acknowledging that Frank Ocean/Miguel et al are even different from other R&B? Come on

Sadly the link to Jackin' Pop no longer seems to exist

{I}xpost Lex, I don't go into any hipster bars in East London. Can you recommend any real ale pubs in North London where I will hear the R&B you commend?{/i}

I once heard teedra moses in the library (I think it's called that?) next to high + i stn! Literally leapt out of my seat to ask the barmaid about it, she was a huge teedra fan and we bonded over it. I don't know about real ale though

there's definitely a gender angle to it, i think that's undeniable. it's much harder for female r&b singers to connect w/ a community that's largely male than it is for a male. the year everyone finally hopped on the-dream's nuts was the same year no critic gave a shit about electrik red, for instance. or, like, personally i don't see a huge distinction between the looniness of mariah carey and the looniness of r kelly (pre-trapped days) and yet r. kelly was approached critically for years despite mariah having some songs on the level of "ignition"

there's also a marketing angle to it. indie people immediately jumped on the weeknd in part because they were aiming for that audience (and for a few other reasons like that no one knew who he was) & miguel getting love from places like stereogum & w/e is in part because they specifically targeted a "hipper" audience (i.e. zombies interpolation + otehr less overt things). frank ocean speaks for itself, obviously.

wait, so now we're not even acknowledging that Frank Ocean/Miguel et al are even different from other R&B? Come on

Not radically so? No more so than some of the other names discussed? Idiosyncrasy and distinctiveness comes in many forms, not just the self-conscious and heavy-handed? But in any case I'm fucking sick of r+b getting praised because it's so fucking ~different~ to other r+b