sometime i read christgau and am amazed...

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Matos in pedantic elitism shockah!

How dare I not know that Jon Andersen was actually a milkman!

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 23 April 2004 20:39 (twenty-two years ago)

What is a "true summer"? Why is there a distinction being drawn at all between a "true summer" and yr regular old summer?

Poetic language d00d. Would "many moons ago" confuse you, too?

Okay, so he's fucking with the timeline here (tho I dunno who the Outfield is), but what for? Do Yes actually sound like Mars Volta and the Outfield?

One would assume that yes, to him they do.

Don't know the cover, so don't know if this is another complex joke I'm out of the loop on. Otherwise this looks like the same trick as the first paragraph - stating "the truth" then following it up with an obvious fabrication (unless Dave Q really is a crack smoker that burned his block down).

He's giving an unconventional spin on what the cover looks like (i.e. it's not the sort of image that you'd associate w/ it just looking at it, but if you look at it after having read the review you can actually kinda see it); referncing HIS house as opposed to just any house is used to enhance his psychotic critical persona (whether or not this persona has anything to do with the *real* Dave Q is absolutley irrelevant.) So it's funny AND a new way of looking at the cover AND useful in characterizing the persona under which he's writing the review (which in turn is useful for knowing whether or not you'd be interested in the album.)

xpost I'm guessing the apartheid line is referencing the fact that "Owner Of A Lonely Heart" is sort of a R&B tune.

Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Friday, 23 April 2004 20:39 (twenty-two years ago)

why don't we stop criticizing criticism and just listen to some fucking music, ok?

cutty (mcutt), Friday, 23 April 2004 20:40 (twenty-two years ago)

all writing in history is littered with things that might or might not be true. here's another hint: Trevor Rabin is from South Africa, and Dave never said "this song is about apartheid."

xpost: YOU'RE calling SOMEONE ELSE a pedant?!

Matos W.K. (M Matos), Friday, 23 April 2004 20:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Tom plz delete humanity

Matos W.K. (M Matos), Friday, 23 April 2004 20:41 (twenty-two years ago)

start with this thread

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 23 April 2004 20:42 (twenty-two years ago)

haha well that even I can do

strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 23 April 2004 20:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I've got your back if you do, man

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 23 April 2004 20:43 (twenty-two years ago)

See, I didn't know that Rabin was from South Africa! So now I've learned something else. I thought that the apartheid thing was a reference to "Owner of a Lonely Heart"'s unlikely cross-over to the R&B charts at the time. I like reading it that way. It makes me laugh.

Broheems (diamond), Friday, 23 April 2004 20:44 (twenty-two years ago)

or let's put it this way: you don't have to know a fucking thing about Yes or its history or anything else to enjoy Dave's Yes article as anything other than a piece of writing. I know this because while editing the thing I had to look up about half of the references; I also know this because I have gotten lotsa feedback from people about that piece--in person and via email--that I know don't know or care about Yes at all. they just liked it as a piece of writing. you don't have to feel the same way, obviously, but presenting it in the pedantic terms you do doesn't make your case look very good.

Matos W.K. (M Matos), Friday, 23 April 2004 20:45 (twenty-two years ago)

i didn't get half of the references (it took me twenty minutes to even remember who the outfield were), and i thought it was hilarious. i sent it to my prog loving best friend and he thought it was hilarious. tomorrow i'll take it into work and see what the indie kids think.

strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 23 April 2004 20:47 (twenty-two years ago)

what the fuck Matos - this article makes sense to you because *you* knew that Horn's from South Africa, that Jon Andersen really was a milkman - and then CALLING ME STUPID because I did not know those things beforehand. You're holding the fact that you understand the obscure context of his references over my head as evidence that I need to be spoonfed. In conclusion: fuck you.

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 23 April 2004 20:48 (twenty-two years ago)

so wait, you transpose trevor rabin with trevor horn who produced "owner of a lonely heart" and has yet to be mentioned in this conversation and you expect us to believe that this is all so obscure?

strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 23 April 2004 20:50 (twenty-two years ago)

this article makes sense to you because *you* knew that Horn's from South Africa, that Jon Andersen really was a milkman

I didn't know these things when I read it, and it made sense to me. I don't think knowing anything about prog or Yes was necessary to understanding the article.

El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Friday, 23 April 2004 20:50 (twenty-two years ago)

I didn't call you stupid, and if I had it certainly wouldn't be because you didn't get some references, which I also--let me repeat--did not call you stupid about. I'm calling the fact that you prissily demand that everything be explained in black & white terms evidence of a need for spoonfeeding. I mean, if you want to talk about hyperbolic leaps, there you go.

Matos W.K. (M Matos), Friday, 23 April 2004 20:51 (twenty-two years ago)

I didn't know these things when I read it, and it made sense to me. I don't think knowing anything about prog or Yes was necessary to understanding the article.

I don't think understanding this article is necessary to understanding this article!

Man that was wild, funny yes bit....awesome.

M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 23 April 2004 20:54 (twenty-two years ago)

yes horn = rabin obvy

(x-post)

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 23 April 2004 20:55 (twenty-two years ago)

for the record, i liked the Dave Q piece.

BanjoMania (Brilhante), Friday, 23 April 2004 20:56 (twenty-two years ago)

glad someone did!

Matos W.K. (M Matos), Friday, 23 April 2004 20:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Geez. The Yes preview is perfectly fine. Funny, even. I understood it from the start, even though I know nothing about Yes other 90125 -- aha! That was probably the fifth purchase that I couldn't remember. Regardless, I totally saw what he was doing, especially becaue he realized he needed to put the aforementioned parantheticals ["(KEY CHANGE)", etc.] That's funny. But to bring it back to the start of the thread, this Blondie review provided no context for me to figure out what the fuck he was saying. And all this math talk from Chuck Eddy is a red herring. The pattern of the HMs here are "here's a witty one liner about the BAND, ALBUM or MUSIC CONTAINED THEREIN" (eg. "The Kate Bush of PJ Harvey" and "Latin Playboys as conceived by an Anglo—too artistic, genuinely literary, lyrical enough to haunt you some").

I have no idea when the problem became, "rock critics are showing off" vs. "readers are morons", but that was the original intention here.

frankE (frankE), Friday, 23 April 2004 20:58 (twenty-two years ago)

everyone liked it except me apparently!

Shakey Mo in minority of one shockah

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 23 April 2004 20:59 (twenty-two years ago)

er, that should read "wasn't the original intention"

frankE (frankE), Friday, 23 April 2004 20:59 (twenty-two years ago)

the problem always becomes that because there are a lot of people on here w/axes to grind against xgau, and just as many people who like his stuff a lot and defend it. see also: "rockism," Avril during 2002, lots of other ILx flashpoints

Matos W.K. (M Matos), Friday, 23 April 2004 21:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Shakey, that's exactly what I'm talking about. IT WAS A JOKE. YOU ARE THE ONLY PERSON HERE WHO SEEMS TO NOT LIKE THE DAVE Q PIECE. THAT'S WHY MY ONE-LINER WAS (NOMINALLY) FUNNY, OR AT LEAST INTENDED TO BE! what part of that do you NOT understand?

Matos W.K. (M Matos), Friday, 23 April 2004 21:01 (twenty-two years ago)

god, I'm starting to miss Alex in Mainhatten, for christ's sake!

Matos W.K. (M Matos), Friday, 23 April 2004 21:02 (twenty-two years ago)

at this point I have no idea what one-liner you're talking about, this thread is so convoluted...

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 23 April 2004 21:03 (twenty-two years ago)

this is turning into full metal jacket

strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 23 April 2004 21:04 (twenty-two years ago)

I should also finish this thought:

The pattern of the HMs here are "here's a witty one liner about the BAND, ALBUM or MUSIC CONTAINED THEREIN" not "here's a comment about one song I like, here's another comment about another song I like."

frankE (frankE), Friday, 23 April 2004 21:05 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm already in a world of shit ...

BanjoMania (Brilhante), Friday, 23 April 2004 21:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Slayer kinda suck.

Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Friday, 23 April 2004 21:06 (twenty-two years ago)

I didn't know they stacked shit this high...

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 23 April 2004 21:07 (twenty-two years ago)

strongo is right, and I am retiring. 'night, all.

Matos W.K. (M Matos), Friday, 23 April 2004 21:07 (twenty-two years ago)

can i have your job?

strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 23 April 2004 21:11 (twenty-two years ago)

"all this math talk from Chuck Eddy is a red herring"

Hey, I only mentioned math in one post, which nobody even answered!! I guess Metal Mike's accounting career is old news or something...

chuck, Friday, 23 April 2004 21:14 (twenty-two years ago)

>The pattern of the HMs here are "here's a witty one liner about the BAND, ALBUM or MUSIC CONTAINED THEREIN" not "here's a comment about one song I like, here's another comment about another song I like."<

But choice A above does not necessarily NEGATE choice B. The Blondie review was meant to be both, obviously -- a witty one-liner consisting of comments about two different songs. Sort of.

chuck, Friday, 23 April 2004 21:17 (twenty-two years ago)

For the record, I didn't like Dave Q's Yes piece either (at least the part I read--I doubt that I finished it). But then the only reason I read it was that praise for it from Ned and others made me curious about it (and I probably was bored at work).

*

I think it's pretty funny how not being terribly interested in writing with "personality" and not looking to writing primarily for its entertainment value is getting labelled "dumbing down" on this thread. I would have thought turning every discipline into a personality cult would be one example of "dumbing down."

*

I honestly don't know why I am continuing to post to this thread. Apparently, I enjoy this sort of thing. I wish I didn't.

Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Friday, 23 April 2004 21:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Chuck, have you ever considered the field of law?

frankE (frankE), Friday, 23 April 2004 21:22 (twenty-two years ago)

No, but I fought it once. And it won.

chuck, Friday, 23 April 2004 21:31 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm assuming the "true summers" stuff is a reference to the chorus of Yes' hit "Roundabout": "Ten true summers we'll be there and laughing too/Twenty-four before my love and I'll be there with you".

sundar subramanian (sundar), Friday, 23 April 2004 21:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Also, the line about the Relayer cover will become funny if you quickly look up the cover.

(To be honest, I didn't really like the piece - though I love dave q and Yes - on first skimming but without even rereading this thread is making me appreciate it more.)

sundar subramanian (sundar), Friday, 23 April 2004 21:44 (twenty-two years ago)

thanks Sundar. I didn't think equating a phrase in common parlance like "many moons" with something random like "true summers" was quite fair meself...

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 23 April 2004 21:46 (twenty-two years ago)

For whatever it's worth, the guy who designs music (and sundry other) section pages here at the Voice -- a graphics guy in his late 40s, not a writer, but also a really big Yes fan (he's going to see them live in April) thought the piece was hilarious.

chuck, Friday, 23 April 2004 21:46 (twenty-two years ago)

I can't believe this is still going on ...


I loved the Yes piece, personally.

"I'm assuming the "true summers" stuff is a reference to the chorus of Yes' hit "Roundabout": "Ten true summers we'll be there and laughing too/Twenty-four before my love and I'll be there with you"."

I hadn't caught that at first. But that was OK. The piece works even if you don't catch it. (I just figured it was an attempt to sound all fancy and literary - just like Yes.) And I think that's the key to making references, lyrical or otherwise.

I didn't know John Anderson was a milkman. If I were someday to find out he weren't, then I'd retroactively like the piece a lot less, because then it would read like pure fiction. But this mixture of fact and fancy is dead-on, particularly given its subject. And it solves the problem of "what the hell is there left to say about Yes?"

Just like Christgau pretty well solved the problem of what to say about the Blondie record, which, according to other reviews I've read in the past day and a half, sounds pretty Blondie-esque.


Rick Massimo (Rick Massimo), Friday, 23 April 2004 22:04 (twenty-two years ago)

I thought a lot of the jokes were funny and that it was clever writing. I just didn't really get what he was saying about Yes. It's entirely possible that I'm missing stuff as I didn't really read in depth. Was it just supposed to be an overview of their career as a build-up to the concert? If so, and it was written for a reader who doesn't know the band and get all the lyric and album cover references, I don't know what it would communicate to them. If it's written for someone who already knows a bit about the band, what is it telling them? Obviously most people here love the piece so they're getting something out of it anyway but that was how it struck me. (Unless the point is that Yes are clever and technically adept but don't really say very much. But I doubt that.)

I also didn't think it was obvious that Christgau was talking about song lyrics. (I too assume "believes in reincarnation" was a reference to it being a comeback album.) And I also don't really get, even after having it explained, what the value of that blurb would be for someone reading it.

sundar subramanian (sundar), Friday, 23 April 2004 22:06 (twenty-two years ago)

(That was a x-post)

sundar subramanian (sundar), Friday, 23 April 2004 22:07 (twenty-two years ago)

this is turning into full metal jacket

No Exit seems more appropriate.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 23 April 2004 22:15 (twenty-two years ago)

"I'm not trapped in here with you. You're all trapped in here with ME."

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 23 April 2004 22:17 (twenty-two years ago)

I also didn't think it was obvious that Christgau was talking about song lyrics. (I too assume "believes in reincarnation" was a reference to it being a comeback album.) And I also don't really get, even after having it explained, what the value of that blurb would be for someone reading it.

-- sundar subramanian (sundar_subramanian200...), April 23rd, 2004.

It's in the Honorable Mentions, so he thinks it's pretty good, but not great. Picking a couple of lyric references = "otherwise, it's pretty much what you'd expect from a Blondie album."

Granted, I needed to have a little of that explained to me - the "reincarnation" bit does sound like a metaphor, which leads one to believe that "wishes the pope had a bigger dick" is also a metaphor. But apparently others got it, so what the heck.

Attaching this much importance, positive or negative, to one of many 10-word end-of-the-column reviews: C or D?

Rick Massimo (Rick Massimo), Friday, 23 April 2004 22:24 (twenty-two years ago)

while we're at it, why is anyone who writes about music of a non-classica/jazz variety termed a "rock" critic? i am not a rock critic. i almost universally dislike rock music of all strains and varieties, have absolutely no interest in it and never write about it. is jamaican dancehall rock?

Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 22:32 (twenty-two years ago)

ps i loved dave q's yes piece, even bearing my rockophobia in mind

Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 22:32 (twenty-two years ago)


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