Taylor Swift - RED - October 22

it's well-known to the point of cliché that women hedge and couch their language significantly more than men do.

ikr, the the point where this resentment at it being pointed out feels v weird

though it does also make it weird that Robin James would write about it as if it's something she's ~discovered~ as she's been teaching (but i think that's something to do w. the rhetorical primacy of 'lived experience' over 'knowledge from a book').

The general point feels correct but grafted onto a song that doesn't serve it. The lightness of the chorus is as much a sense of cathartic relief - like, great, now that's clear I can go back to dancing like I'm 22 - as anything else. I'm not convinced that the singer of "picture to burn" or "dear John" is a good example of a woman who feels the need to disguise her anger.

Also I think taylor's own explanation of the song's deliberate lightness contradicts this theory - womaximising maybe?

The blogger didn't really comment much about her assertion that black women's music is more angry and bitter than white women's music. I'll be honest, I don't really listen to a shit-ton of music by black women, and maybe that's something that I should change, but I have faith that ilm could provide some great examples and counter-examples.

Swift’s song is a perfect example of wominimizing. As strong as the verbal content of her lyrics are, the musical performance of them undermines their authoritativeness. Or, perhaps rather: Swift intentionally performs wominimizing rhetoric so that she won’t be dismissed as bitchy, irrational, angry, etc. Strong sarcasm isn’t something we often hear in vocals by white female pop stars, though, as Angela Davis has noted, it’s a longstanding convention in black women’s blues-based vocal performance traditions. So, there might also be some need to racially qualify the sarcasm (which could be coded black) with appropriate forms of white femininity in the chorus’s vocal delivery.

Does anyone have any compelling reasons to wait for the vinyl

http://www.amazon.com/Red-Taylor-Swift/dp/B009NT0I06/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1352033961&sr=1-1&keywords=TAYLOR+SWIFT+Red

that's a nice price for one, but i pre-ordered on account of the fact that my turntable is placed so i have to get on my knees to put something on and i'll gladly pray to the Goddess of Tay

I finally broke down and paid the full itunes freight on this -- congratulations, Taylor, that's the most money I've spent on an album all year. I like it plenty, but I do think it's patchier than Speak Now and too long by about four songs. The stylistic range is nice, and the best stuff is straight-A work. Without belaboring what everybody else has said, the thing that jumps out at me over and over is the drum production, which I love. Not something I expect to love about a Taylor Swift record, but the consistent tom-tom thumping is the thing that ties the whole record together for me. Unusual for a 2012 pop album, and it kicks several of the songs up a notch.

Also, the first two anecdotal examples she provides of students 'wominimizing' in her class just seem like a mix of basic etiquette and cautiousness.

they sound like, i don't know, a student talking to a college professor in front of a class. definitely no other power discrepancies at play there...the link is pretty dumb

back half of this album is kinda meh? i mean, i could be wrong, and i'm sure it's been discussed before, but that's how it seems to me

Well, I really like half the back half -- "Stay Stay Stay," "Holy Ground," "The Lucky One" and "Begin Again." But could take or leave most of the others.

(the Ed Sheeran song's all right, really. nice hooks, it just feels like the kind of thing she can knock out in her sleep.)

yeah there are spotty tracks all over... it's def not a back half thing (despite me saying this earlier)

I think my least favorite thing on the record is "22," which is actively irritating instead of just snoozy like the Snow Patrol duet. But otoh it's catchy and will probably lodge itself in my brain.

nah that song is great

"Sad Beautiful Tragic" is my pick for most blah writing and singing after "We Are Never, Ever..."

whatever thing with snow patrol guy is the worst fucking thing imaginable, but the rest of the album is solid thru and thru

Oh yeah, "Sad Beautiful Tragic" -- so dull I forgot about it. Still overall, it's a really good album and I'm fine with her messing around and finding new ways to do her thing. Stuff like "State of Grace" and "I Knew You Were Trouble" really surprised me the first time I heard them, and I wasn't expecting to be surprised by her the 4th time around. And "I Almost Do," "All Too Well," and "Begin Again" show her getting better at the things she was already pretty great at.

(Somebody else said this upthread, but I like "We Are Never..." way better on the album than on its own.)

This album definitely isn't as patchy as people say it is and esp. for a 16 song pop album it's actually unsurprisingly unpatchy. A couple of comments re the most recent claims of patchiness:

1. Yes, the two duets are among the weakest songs here but they're actually better than you could reasonably expect given the people involved. Each have great moments in them (love the way TS sings "you wear your best apology / but I was there to watch you leave")

2. Yes, the nasal vocal on "22" is jarring at first but it's the best written and produced Martineseque pop jugganaut since "Teenage Dream".

3. Yes, "Sad Beautiful Tragic" is a relatively undramatic Mazzy Star knock-off but it's not blah singing at all, if anything it has one of my favourite sung moments in this climax:

Distance, tire me, break down, fighting
Silence, this train runs off its tracks
Kiss me, try to fix it, would you just try to listen
Hang up, give up, for the life of us we can't get it back

Also love this couplet:

And time is taking its sweet time erasing you
And you've got your demons, and darling they all look like me

Also I think that the strategy here is largely more satisfying than either of the first two albums where the weaker material (stuff like "Teardrops On My Guitar", "A Place In This World", "I'm Only Me When I'm With You", "White Horse", "You're Not Sorry") tended to be basically less interesting versions of the stronger material.

Granted, for all the people who want to make straightforward snap judgments about such things it's a lot easier to simply ignore the weaker tracks on Fearless and pretend it has no flaws (and also pretend that anything on the first album other than "Tim McGraw" simply doesn't exist).

tim otm but "white horse" and "you're not sorry" are my favorite tracks on fearless, the only thing i don't like on fearless is "change"

I'm not really into "Change" but it didn't fit my theory so I left it off.

I massively turned against "White Horse" when I saw Taylor in concert, that and "Fifteen" were both performed as if she was actively pandering to the ten year old portion of her audience but at least with "Fifteen" there was some justification.

How so? Can't remember anything particular about those performances. Non-US Speak Now Tour, btw. Love Story -> White Horse has remained one of my favorite things on Fearless, and agreed with BradNelson xp.

When I saw her she sung it surrounded by a crowd of young girls hand picked from the crowd at the back of the auditorium and let them sing the chorus, it was either during that or "fifteen" that she descended through them letting them touch her like some kind of religious icon. It was the only time I've actually felt uncomfortable about a live pop experience.

This was the Fearless tour btw.

Back to Red, the duet with snow patrol feels like a deliberate acting outro extremes of the single chord chug that underpins so many of the songs here so successfully (as a side note I wouldn't be surprised if Taylor herself has a love of that kind of sound from its constant use on tv dramas like grey's anatomy).

It's a really effective setting for the accretion of details in her songs, though less so on "the last time" itself.

M

...more generally when "treacherous" is playing I can't imagine liking any other music more.

"white horse" is a phenomenal song - it was the one which, on first listen, really triggered the "whoa taylor swift is a master craftsman" realisation in me

what's wrong with "teardrops on my guitar"? it's not a top-tier single overall but it's top-tier on the debut album, and the line "the kind of flawless i wish i could be" is such a massive moment. i like that it's the same story as "you belong with me" (and of all of taylor's singles, those are the two that work best - word for word - as high school gay anthems).

Also I think that the strategy here is largely more satisfying than either of the first two albums where the weaker material (stuff like "Teardrops On My Guitar", "A Place In This World", "I'm Only Me When I'm With You", "White Horse", "You're Not Sorry") tended to be basically less interesting versions of the stronger material.

but i agree with this point more generally, and also that red isn't that patchy (granted i'm just skipping the duets; if your reaction to ed sheeran is not "kill it with fire" it probably will be at some point if he's allowed to continue, so trust the britishers on this). agree on that moment in "sad beautiful tragic".

the back half may seem "patchy" cuz it's all over the place - the first 8 or so tracks are a massive rush of non-stop quintessential taylorness, then suddenly you get a jokey country song and duets you have to skip and "holy ground" which sounds as if it should come earlier in the album and a weird experimental song about fame. but it's more that the album's momentum is halted than the songs are bad.

When I saw her she sung it surrounded by a crowd of young girls hand picked from the crowd at the back of the auditorium and let them sing the chorus, it was either during that or "fifteen" that she descended through them letting them touch her like some kind of religious icon

this sounds amazing and i am jealous of those who got to sing with her and touch her

I think "invisible" is a better version of "teardrops on my guitar", though I certainly still like the latter.

...more generally when "treacherous" is playing I can't imagine liking any other music more.

amen

"white horse" is a phenomenal song - it was the one which, on first listen, really triggered the "whoa taylor swift is a master craftsman" realisation in me

otm.

I think all her albums have some clunkers, tho on Speak Now I came to like or at least respect every track. Red feels looser and sometimes less carefully crafted than Speak Now, but that also seems deliberate -- the last one was her "I'm a songwriter, in case you hadn't noticed" statement, this one is much more about pop/rock hugeness (sonic and commercial). And for a huge pop/rock album, it still has plenty of the intimacy and grace notes she can conjure when she tries.

they sound like, i don't know, a student talking to a college professor in front of a class. definitely no other power discrepancies at play there...the link is pretty dumb

Yeah, I didn't think it was fair to characterize my questioning of a blog post as resentment that an obvious truth was being pointed out.

oh for god's sake

not even gonna argue with this faux-offence

don't think anyone found it offensive, was just a strained blog post from a bored but well-meaning academic

Liking this album the more I listen to it, I guess. Still feels very oil and water in terms of the pop stuff versus the singer/songwritery stuff, which I don't mind. I don't think "22" is nearly as good as a lot of people are saying t is -- stuff about "dressing up like hipsters" or "too many cool people" feel like stock phrases, not meaningful details.

As someone who has used "Tim McGraw" to talk about How Great Taylor Swift Used to Be (more I often I use it to point out how stupid it is to think Taylor Swift "used to be innocent" or something), I take all of Tim's points here. Though I think "White Horse" and "You're Not Sorry" are two of her best songs, and that "Teardrops" was great as a pop country song. But I think you're also underestimating how good "Our Song" and "Picture to Burn" and "Should've Said No" and "Cold as You" and maybe even "Mary's Song" are. Would say that stuff is closer to a particularly country songwriting tradition, maybe, whereas the new stuff is competing with singer/songwriter (incidentally bought "Red" at Starbucks for twelve bucks; sounds great in the car).

But actually I kind of have to own up to the fact that I wasn't super into Taylor Swift after her first album, wasn't as interested in "Fearless" as a singer/songwriter album as I was in "Taylor Swift" as an album that bridged the (then) country/teenpop divide. I do think she works better when Liz Rose has more credit on the album (Fwiw, Rose is the co-writer on "All Too Well," one of my favorites on the new one), but then "Our Song" and "Should've Said No" are Swift solo credits, too.

feel like stock phrases, not meaningful details.

i don't think they function as either!

But I think you're also underestimating how good "Our Song" and "Picture to Burn" and "Should've Said No" and "Cold as You" and maybe even "Mary's Song" are.

No, these are all my favourites on the first album (plus "Stay Beautiful" and "Invisible" and "Tim McGraw" obv) and I love them to bits. It took me a long time to recognise just how good Fearless was because of the absence of stuff like "Picture To Burn" on the one hand or "Our Song" on the other (you don't need to contest this point - I got the second album eventually).

I'm just saying the first album is patchy too - probably patchier than Red in that the above songs simply tower above most everything else.

I had the same experience with "Fearless" (took a while to click). And actually, there aren't many clunkers on "Red," I suppose, just seems kind of uneven from a sequencing standpoint. In fact I bet you could make two pretty solid albums out of tracks from "Speak Now" and "Red" that are closer in style without getting rid of many (or even any?) songs.

I felt the "stock phrase" thing re: the indie record line that a bunch of people liked, too -- seemed like she should name an indie record! "When you think Neutral Milk Hotel, I hope you think of me." My pet theory is that the record is Best Coast, would have loved something about a dumb song singing about your cat a la that interview she gave. I think that Taylor's quite good with some of the bombast on both "Speak Now" and "Red," both sonic ("Holy Ground" and "State of Grace") and just in terms of broader imagery -- like color-coding her feelings and driving Maseratis. Just not sure it's as interesting to me.

seemed like she should name an indie record! "When you think Neutral Milk Hotel, I hope you think of me."

noooooooooo this would be terrible

I think that Taylor's quite good with some of the bombast on both "Speak Now" and "Red," both sonic ("Holy Ground" and "State of Grace") and just in terms of broader imagery -- like color-coding her feelings and driving Maseratis. Just not sure it's as interesting to me.

Yeah but see i feel that we always overrate in memory how consistently details-focused the prior album(s) is/are, so each time a new one comes around everyone's like "oh she's shifted away from hard details."

Whereas it's always been the case that, with some very specific exceptions, her songs have always shifted b/w the two gears of detail and bombastic generality.

I dunno, as is, both just seem kind of dull as reference points. (The NMH thing was a joke; that would obviously be the worst line ever.) "Ugh, I hate how they always dress like HIPSTERS and listen to their INDIE RECORDS."

xpost, Yeah, you're probably right. IIRC my usual stance on Taylor Swift from c. 2006 to present has been a perpetual thing of hoping she'll put out an album like "Autobiography," which never really happened. But then she's amassed way more good material at this point than Ashlee ever had a chance to. (And Ashlee can be plenty patchy, too.)

i've just been arguing on twitter about how TS's hipster-bashing is one of my favourite things about this era

also you know I love ashlee but EVERY taylor album is better than autobiography

I don't think the "dress up like hipsters" line is particularly negative, if she and her friends really hated hipsters they wouldn't be seen out dressed up like them. And Taylor's been rocking thick-framed glasses a lot recently. There's a level of irony there - instead of dressing up like princesses like we used to when we were kids, now we dress up like hipsters - but not dislike I think.

The bigger "issue" IMO is the "this place is too crowded / too many cool kids" line, which posits a fantasy speaker that is neither taylor nor 99.999% of her audience. It's not the falsity of that which is an issue for me but the way that this post-p!nk (ever since the video clip for 'get this party started' actually) anti-celebrity-for-the-weirdos construct has become the default pop star move against which all other versions are at best only one or two steps removed. So Taylor adopting it feels like an effacement of her personality. Basically everything in "22" except the chorus falls into this category for me and I don't think it's a good look for Taylor, it's too obviously a construct, including the hamfisted contradictions ("happy free confused and lonely" / "miserable and magical").

OTOH the chorus is absolutely amazing which lifts it above being a "Raise Your Glass" knock off for me.

Won't comment on that one, obvs, but I think the important thing is that for whatever reason on albums 1 and 2 I wondered if there was any connection between Ashlee Simpson and Taylor Swift, and by album 4 I don't think I care as much about trying to make the connection (because the answer was, "kind of but not really, who cares?").

xpost, but the whole line is "let's dress up like hipsters and make fun of our exes," isn't it? Or are those two unconnected things?

I hadn't heard the lines as being connected, maybe they are though. But what would it mean that all of them had been dating hipsters??

That they were famous people dating other famous people?

Well yeah exactly - I don't think either way the line can really be construed as suggesting that "hipster" is a category that the singer is outside of and disapproves of.

The club line is still the problem, I guess -- because if they dress up like hipsters out of general emulation or whatever, the cool kids line seems that much more disingenuous. And if it's to make fun of exes, then it's the same problem as the "cool kids" line. But yes, chorus is unstoppable nonetheless, and if I could get over "Better Than Revenge," "22" shouldn't be a problem.