I can't believe ILX hasn't polled Legend yet - Bob Marley

Well, this is based only on what I can recall from a book called African Warriors I read and also a talk by a Wailers biographer I went to see a wee while back. Believe it or not I haven't seen the Marley doc, but I'm desperate to.

Part of the reason for Marley's extraordinary success away from the rest of the Jamaican music market stems from the chromatocratical hierarchy of power in Jamaica. Marley, being mixed-race and yet born and bred as a black man in a relatively impoverished rural (and later urban) setting, made him the perfect posterboy (or pawn if you wanna get cynical about it) for the Rasta movement. I understand he had a number of mentors in his time, including Rastafari guru Mortimer Planno, who taught and encouraged him to take his message to a global platform. This is recognised in Marley's music: while other reggae artists found success in pockets of working class UK dancehalls, the funk-rock sound mentioned upthread was very much developed with the guidance of UK/US producers AFAIK, and therefore tailored for the mainstream Western market.

Marley is perhaps one of the very few examples of a big music star whose personal history outweighs the music in terms of interest for me. I don't really listen to his stuff a whole lot, but his story is also the story of the rise of Rasta from tiny grassroots movement to an internationally recognised politico-religious concern. I can't begin to describe the impact the man had, not just on the musical world but the world at large. His story is also the story of reggae music, the rise of Jamaica post-independence, and also a modern history of race relations in the Caribbean. If it wasn't for him, I believe reggae would never have had half the impact it did on the rest of the world, we wouldn't consider Jamaica a particularly special place as far as music is concerned, Rasta would have remained a relatively obscure sect and racial attitudes across the globe would be significantly worse off.

That's a highly-potted explanation because, as I say, I've only read a few things on the subject, but hopefully that goes towards answering the question a little.

It surprised me too, but Buffalo Soldier was a massive song and Bob was dead and all that so xp

Dog latin, what you say is interesting but I have to admit that I don't really know enough about racial politics in Jamaica (both within the music industry and in the wider society) to engage with you on that. Food for thought though! Outside of that I guess Clapton covering one of his songs was a huge boost for his international profile.

To summarise extremely briefly - the Rasta movement started off as a rural community up in the hills - pretty much self-sufficient, with regular visits to the towns to sell farmed goods (including ganja) grown on the land. They were regarded as a nuisance by the white Jamaican administration of the time who drove dwellers out of the countryside and into the urban shanty towns and government yards with multiple families often living under the same roof. The political situation was massively fucked up; close to civil war between rival factions, corruption and coups abound... It led to the persecution of impoverished blacks in these settings and sooner or later the introduction of guns and gang warfare to these communities. The Jamaican ghettos were largely seen as the product of racial and class-based persecution on the part of a highly corrupt and inter-warring government.

Okay, so where does Marley's mixed race background fit into this? Were you saying that he would have been favoured by the powers that be because of that?

'could you be loved' - fucking club jam

― balls, Thursday, October 18, 2012 12:40 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

― Chris S, Thursday, October 18, 2012 6:17 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

(xp) Sure this has been covered in other bob Marley threads

Okay, so where does Marley's mixed race background fit into this? Were you saying that he would have been favoured by the powers that be because of that?

― a punch-up at a web zing (NickB), Friday, 19 October 2012 13:16 (59 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

In a nutshell, and as far as I know, yeah he'd have been given a modicum more credo.

Sappy, but "Buffalo Soldier" always brings tears to my eyes!

Agreed with some previous posts. the best Marley track for me isn't on the comp : concrete jungle.
about the compilations, I suppose the blue/red beatles compilations are also up there.

Okay, so where does Marley's mixed race background fit into this? Were you saying that he would have been favoured by the powers that be because of that?

― a punch-up at a web zing (NickB), Friday, 19 October 2012 13:16 (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Actually maybe not so much the powers that be, rather than his peers.

Waiting In Vain just barely over Satisfy My Soul.

sooo basically the nutshell explanation is that Marley had more doors opened to him than, say, the Mighty Diamonds or U-Roy or whoever, because he was half-white...?

the funk-rock sound mentioned upthread was very much developed with the guidance of UK/US producers AFAIK, and therefore tailored for the mainstream Western market.

I would think this is a huge part of it, can't think of any others who were really pushed in this direction (or even had the opportunity to go in this direction)

"Stir it up". That's probably madness, though.

Just listened to the clip upthread, and I take that back. Not madness. It's just right.

Always thought a big part of his thrust into superstardom was due to Wailers being 1st (and virtually only) JA band to be marketed like a rock band, ie cohesive stable unit who wrote their own material in full. And once he got that foothold on international rock (ie white) market his talent and charisma pushed his fame higher and sustained it.

"Could You Be Loved" otm, that groove is super heavy.

His charisma is it, though - I only realised relatively recently, watching some mundane clip on VH1 or something, but you can't rip your eyes off him. He looks otherworldly.

Outside of that I guess Clapton covering one of his songs was a huge boost for his international profile.

― a punch-up at a web zing (NickB), Friday, October 19, 2012 3:35 AM (7 hours ago)

This.

When Eric Clapton (fresh off a comeback from post-Derek&Dominoes success/heroin lapse) covers your song and it goes to #1 Worldwide, I think people start paying attention. Coupled with Marley's exile from Jamaica from 76-78 sort of forced him to become an international star (although I guess you could argue that didn't work as well for someone like Caetano).

damn, the version of "concrete jungle" from the same session as "stir it up" is great.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAYNXSv6wmw

Peter Tosh is so cool !

Oh man, that is incredible. See what I mean about 'otherworldly' too? He doesn't look like anyone else, and it's like he's moving in his own universe, where things move at a different speed.

Thanks to this thread, I ordered the doc via Netflix.

I guess I'm the only one who thought the Marley doc was horrible? Some nice archival footage, but otherwise crap.

yeah, Marley is magnetic there. so intense.

xp
there were things that bothered me in retrospect. It's very much a biographical doc of a rock star--there's not a ton about recording or writing the music, while there's a lot about his experiences with women. Idk, I still really enjoyed watching it. Everyone commenting on his charisma makes me think maybe I just hadn't spent much time appreciating that in a long time.

I have never really gotten my head around why Marley stands so far apart from the pack in the reggae genre

I think it's sort of that maybe Marley is closer to a traditional singer/songwriter than just a reggae singer? This was sort of driven home to me by recent interviews with Jimmy Cliff, where he's been considering himself well outside the context of reggae, with reggae just one facet of his musical personality. Session overdubs and remixes aside, a lot of the songs on this comp, like "No Woman, No Cry," "Exodus" or "Waiting In Vain" or "Could You Be Loved?", seem to transcend genre conventions in a way that not all reggae acts can.

"just a reggae singer"

There are hundreds of reggae singers I'd rather hear than "No Woman, No Cry" again, and I don't see how "Exodus" is so strikingly different from scores of other roots reggae songs. Marley's career clearly diverged from the reggae pack, but it doesn't make much sense to say he "transcended" reggae when he was synthesizing conventions from other genres--an approach that Legend was constructed to emphasize. I mean, Marley's popularity with white audiences is like a perfect case study in What Is Rockism?

'could you be loved' - fucking club jam

― balls, Thursday, October 18, 2012 12:40 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

― Chris S, Thursday, October 18, 2012 6:17 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

― some dude, Friday, October 19, 2012 8:25 AM (2 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

re: greatest hits that are the definitive album for an act - this would make a cool thread/poll in itself I guess. I agree with Steve Miller Band x1000, not so sure about Eagles - - that album was an all time mega seller, but it's always weird to pick it up in a record bin, look at the back, and realize that it doesn't have "Hotel California," "Life In The Fast Lane," "One Of These Nights," "Lyin' Eyes," "Take It To The Limit," or "The Long Run." The Great Twenty-Eight would qualify I think.

As for Marley, don't know most of these songs but I have always really liked "Buffalo Soldier" so, that.

also, i am wrong, half those songs are in fact on the Eagles Greatest Hits - but you get my point.

My favourite Marley song is Don't Rock My Boat which is an early version of Satisfy My Soul, so I'll go with that.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

I think it's sort of that maybe Marley is closer to a traditional singer/songwriter than just a reggae singer? This was sort of driven home to me by recent interviews with Jimmy Cliff, where he's been considering himself well outside the context of reggae, with reggae just one facet of his musical personality. Session overdubs and remixes aside, a lot of the songs on this comp, like "No Woman, No Cry," "Exodus" or "Waiting In Vain" or "Could You Be Loved?", seem to transcend genre conventions in a way that not all reggae acts can.

― Josh in Chicago, Saturday, October 20, 2012 1:24 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

"just a reggae singer"

There are hundreds of reggae singers I'd rather hear than "No Woman, No Cry" again, and I don't see how "Exodus" is so strikingly different from scores of other roots reggae songs. Marley's career clearly diverged from the reggae pack, but it doesn't make much sense to say he "transcended" reggae when he was synthesizing conventions from other genres--an approach that Legend was constructed to emphasize. I mean, Marley's popularity with white audiences is like a perfect case study in What Is Rockism?

― rob, Saturday, October 20, 2012 1:45 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

two silly posts, from opposite ends of the spectrum, back to back

well, second one only for the last line really

I've long been thinking I should poll "Best Bob Marley Song Not on 'Legend'". Several Bob fans I've known consider this comp not entirely representative of his best work, leaving out too much of his earlier recordings and not capturing the political/activist leanings in many of his songs.

His early work is stupendous and seriously overlooked.

I don't like Marley's big albums precisely because he "transcended" reggae. I'm no purist and have no problem with that in principle but after the early material collected on that Trojan 2CD a few years ago he jettisoned whatever it is that I like about that music. I wonder what the Venn overlap is between reggae fans and Marley fans - maybe not as big as you'd think.

can't decide out of these tracks having had a long think about it.

wd vote for "Punky Reggae Party" in a flash but i break this down to "Could You Be Loved" vs "Redemption Song" to an extent

don't really give a stuff about contextualising this shit within reggae

I'm a huge reggae fan but only own Exodus on CD and Legend on MP3. I find them pleasant but don't listen to them a whole lot compared to other reggae. Really the only time I listen to him is on compilations.
The difference between Marley and everyone else is that his music seems more designed for the long-play format. I find a lot of the Legend stuff drags along in a classic rock kind of way. There's something very "jammy" about the tracks - they tend to go on a lot longer and do less than the average 3-minute reggae single. This might go to some lengths in explaining why popular perception of reggae is that it's repetitive and "samey".

Catch A Fire / Natty Dread / Live at the Lyceum / Rastaman Vibration is "my" Marley era. Thought he went a bit drippy thereafter. That said, Could You Be Loved is unfuckwithable, of course.

The difference between Marley and everyone else is that his music seems more designed for the long-play format.

Don't agree with you there. And popular perceptions of reggae being repetitive and samey predate Marley. During its first commercial breakthrough, late 60s and early 70s, reggae was often considered, by rock crits (the ILMers of their day), to be some sort of simplistic novelty music for skinheads + other working class/ ethnic types, not to be taken seriously, unlike the new Blodwyn Pig album, for instance.

My main problem with Marley is I don't really like his voice.

Sure, it hasn't always been taken very seriously, not least in its heyday, but reggae isn't exactly famous for being an "album genre". I could name, maybe four or five albums by other artists (Marcus Garvey, Heart of the Congos, King Tubby Meets Rockers Uptown) that are half as canonised as Marley's work and many of those (Super Ape for example) are better described as producer-driven quasi-compilations. The album format allows Marley to spread out and extend songs like No Woman No Cry, Exodus and Stir It Up etc well beyond the 4 minute mark. The ubiquity of these tracks added with their length has made them seem like choreful dirges in my mind.

Don't agree with you either, dl. Mid-70s roots reggae was very much album-based. #iwasthereman

reggae isn't exactly famous for being an "album genre".

There are all sorts reasons for that, unconnected with the actual music

sure, but the fact Bob Marley was the most "album-y" reggae artist by a fairly long stretch certainly had an impact ont he kind of music he released.

Other "album-y" reggae artists from the same period: Culture, Burning Spear, Mighty Diamonds, Keith Hudson, Black Uhuru, Steel Pulse, Bunny Wailer, Peter Tosh, Eek-a-Mouse, The Abyssinians, Aswad, Prince Far-I, The Gladiators, Linton Kwesi Johnson, Junior Murvin, The Congos, Doctor Alimantado, Augustus Pablo, Jacob Miller, Third World, Gregory Isaacs, Wailing Souls, Tappa Zukie, Sly Dunbar...

Just last night I was thinking that when he sings "Coming in from the cold..." he probably means 55 degrees or so.