Itunes, Billboard, and the marginalization of black music and black audiences in America

what genre of music dominates the US singles charts now?

i mean if you want to go by the stereotype that country fans are rural/poorer than the same would apply to them too

― congratulations (n/a), Thursday, October 11, 2012 2:07 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I don't think this is as true as one might assume? A lot of well-off suburban country listeners. Or at least country seems to do fairly well on Itunes.

capital-p Pop -- Katy Perry, Rihanna, Gaga, Kelly Clarkson, Pink, One Direction, etc. although this year stuff like Gotye and fun. has mixed things up a bit. (xpost)

there's also the argument that buying your favorite song on iTunes (as opposed to just listening to it on the radio, streaming it on YouTube now and again, or buying the album) is a generational habit, and so things that skew younger benefit from this -- Taylor, Rihanna etc.

i mean it sucks because a lot of these formats had been fostering new stars and putting interesting songs at #1 lately, but you're never gonna see Miguel top the R&B chart or Eric Church top the country chart again after this

don't forget Maroon 5

interesting stuff. i don't have my head entirely around the numbers & methodologies here, but there's something about a "return to monoculture" either in real terms or as a measurement phenomenon.

is the pop domination due to itunes or changing of radio playlists/genre stations changing to top 40 or just one of those things that happens?

interesting stuff. i don't have my head entirely around the numbers & methodologies here, but there's something about a "return to monoculture" either in real terms or as a measurement phenomenon.

It's been happening on radio for a while. It's impossible to break the Rihanna-Goyte-Katy-Perry-Maroon-5 stranglehold on Clear Channel Radio. I mean, I hear "One More Night" every 45 minutes.

but you're never gonna see Miguel top the R&B chart or Eric Church top the country chart again after this

to be blunt about this, it's because, even though Rihanna makes club trance, she "is R&B" (because, you know), and Taylor Swift makes pop dubstep, she "is country" (again, because, you know). right?

in a way it seems like this is a identity/identification/musicalogical problem. almost.

Taylor Swift... makes pop dubstep?

p much

well, it's because when five Rihanna tracks become available her fans will download them at once from iTunes.

SWIFTSTEP

What would an ideal modern chart system look like?

Taylor Swift... makes pop dubstep?

I'll assume you don't want to hear her latest track.

What would an ideal modern chart system look like?

"Adorn" and "Springsteen" topping every chart.

http://soundcloud.com/taylorswiftofficial/i-knew-you-were-trouble

is the pop domination due to itunes or changing of radio playlists/genre stations changing to top 40 or just one of those things that happens?

― Algerian Goalkeeper, Thursday, October 11, 2012 2:12 PM Bookmark

Both of those things are happening. Another part of this phenomenon I wanted to get into is how specialized radio stations have been getting pushed off the airwaves. A few years ago another change that happened is how Arbitron, the company that measures radio station ratings (and thus, how much $$$ stations get from advertisers), changed their own system from one in which their sample listeners kept diaries of what they listened to to one in which an electronic device automatically records what radio they listen to. There have been arguments about their sampling methodology underrepresenting minorities and related issues, but the effect of this switch has been black- and latino-focused radio stations plummeting in ratings. A lot have switched formats and this is compounded by the fact that many talk, news, and sports stations have been ditching AM radio for FM, which has traditionally been the domain of music stations due to its higher fidelity. A few years ago, Seattle had three high-powered commercial stations that focused on black music - a rap/r&b station, an "adult rhythmic" station that focused on 80s-2000s dance & r&b hits, and a smooth jazz/adult r&b station. Today only the former is left, and it skews much more towards pop.

I'll assume you don't want to hear her latest track.

lol hell no

this is a identity/identification/musicalogical problem

it has always been this way. R&B is just shorthand for "black", 'twas ever thus

The adult rhythmic station is now top 40 and the smooth jazz station is now sports, fwiw. KUBE, the r&b/rap station, used to be an unassailable ratings kingpin, but now lags behind both the newly-top 40 Movin 92.5 and the already existing top 40 station Kiss 106, which used to have very mediocre ratings.

xp to Rev: something like this happened in the twin cities too. there was a lone black oriented pop station up and running for quite a few years (B96). interestingly it was a new startup at the time (i need to look up exactly when but it was in the 00s) i could tell that the advertiser base was becoming increasingly reliant on only a few businesses as the years went by. and then one day it was done, changed to a pretty generic 80s-10s pop/rock station, a bit like the JackFM format.

xp idk how common this phenomenon was across black radio nationally but this station had its slice of white club pop: gwen stefani, justin timberlake, lady gaga, and right before the end, kesha.

for the last decade or so, there have been 3 contemporary R&B/rap stations in Baltimore and D.C. that all pretty much play the same things from the top of the R&B/Hip Hop Songs chart. in the last year, one of the D.C. stations began dropping Ellie Goulding and Katy Perry and Gotye and Flo Rida into their playlist. and they're the only R&B station i've heard Rihanna's now-#1 R&B hit "Diamonds" on.

xp to myself: er when i say "lone" that's not quite true, there's been a lower-powered black community radio station, KMOJ, on the air here for years. this was the only black radio station with broadcasting reach over the entire metro.

Until now, only country stations contributed to the Hot Country Songs chart, or R&B/hip-hop stations to Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Songs; the same held true for Latin and rock. The new methodology, which will utilize the Hot 100's formula of incorporating airplay from more than 1,200 stations of all genres monitored by BDS, will reward crossover titles receiving airplay on a multitude of formats. With digital download sales and streaming data measuring popularity on the most inclusive scale possible, it is only just the radio portion of Billboard chart calculations that includes airplay from the entire spectrum of monitored formats.

UGH.

"Adorn" and "Springsteen" topping every chart.

I mean not what kind of music would make up the charts, but how would a properly designed modern chart system function?

I'm trying to wrap my head around how all of this works, but the idea that there was this beneficial feedback loop between radio and what the audience was buying is interesting and something I've never really considered. It makes sense that a chart that allows for some input from tastemakers would work better than one that strictly tracks sales. I always thought of that feedback loop in a negative way, as a pointless echo chamber, and a decade ago I would have thought that something like an itunes chart would end up being more diverse and interesting than a radio-driven chart, but obviously that's not the case.

So I'm kind of wondering what other kinds of gatekeeper or tastemaking factors could be input into the equation besides radio? Like in theory it seems like you could develop some kind of interesting combination of online sales and listening metrics (itunes, spotify listens, lastfm) and then add in something like hype machine data for the gatekeeper input. But that wouldn't really work in the same way and wouldn't result in the kind of beneficial feedback loop that existed between radio and retail.

Boston's R&B/hip-hop station has been a ClearChannel property for years and has therefore already been on this bandwagon; the interesting thing happening here is the dismantling of all of the alternative stations

xp: goole I was gonna ask if KMOJ disappeared after this summer!

i think that the genre charts should have remained dictated by airplay on only stations of particular formats. the Hot 100 and various Digital Sales charts already did a good job of showing what was selling even if it wasn't getting airplay. MAYBE the genre charts could have digital sales factored in, but at a much lower rate than they are now, where it just feels like this trump card that overrides all other factors.

if you look at Billboard's Radio Songs chart, which is all airplay from all formats, you can see that there's clearly just way more pop stations than anything else right now. the 10th biggest pop song on it often outperforms whatever the biggest song on urban radio is.

DJP: i can't/don't listen to it at all really but it's still around afaik: http://kmojfm.com/

I share most of the above concerns about these changes. But is it possible this move could actually prove a good thing by allowing stations to rely less on the charts? Stations still ultimately have agency over what they play, so I don't think urban stations are going to start playing Rihanna just because her songs appear on their charts as a technicality, and if these charts really do become as messy and random as we're predicting here, isn't it possible that could make them such unreliable barometers that stations begin ignoring them?

I don't know how you break the interdependence of stations and the charts tbh

that's a nice thought, but generally anytime some shit happens that makes me hope "maybe this is the breaking point and from here on out things will get more regionalized and freeform and open-minded!" i'm wrong. (xpost)

Rev, re limited American radio options, this started back last century, blame Clinton for signing the Gingrich pushed Telecommunications Act of 1996; and radio programmer Lee Abrams homogenized commercial rock radio back in the late 1970s

http://futureofmusic.org/article/research/radio-deregulation-has-it-served-musicians-and-citizens

The radical deregulation of the radio industry allowed by the Telecommunications Act of 1996 has not benefited the public or musicians. Instead, it has led to less competition, fewer viewpoints, and less diversity in programming. Deregulation has damaged radio as a public resource.

I was hoping no one was going to bring up the Act.

to be fair radio HAS learned to ignore songs with iTunes sales bumps for a long time -- if it's a new artist like fun. or PSY then sales helps show the interest, but so far it's rare that some superstar's deep cut that jumps on the Hot 100 purely from sales gets added to playlists (although sometimes sales can help pick singles -- Molanphy had a good column a few months ago how big sales for "Set Fire To The Rain" as an album track contributed to it becoming a single)

Boston's R&B/hip-hop station has been a ClearChannel property for years and has therefore already been on this bandwagon; the interesting thing happening here is the dismantling of all of the alternative stations

Both KUBE and Kiss 106 in Seattle are Clear Channel. It should be noted that as KUBE is playing an increasing amount of pop (although mostly by black artists - Flo Rida, Rihanna et al), Kiss has eschewed playing rap and r&b at all. The Flo Rida brigade is the only music by black artists they play, and only a few such songs at a time. Their playlist is otherwise white white white white white, which wasn't the case ten years ago, when they were playing 50 Cent just like every other station in America. 92.5 the other, non-Clear Channel top 40 station here, doesn't seem as averse to dropping "Mercy" or whatever from time to time tho.

in ten years all commercial radio is either gonna be chr or talk

i think that the genre charts should have remained dictated by airplay on only stations of particular formats. the Hot 100 and various Digital Sales charts already did a good job of showing what was selling even if it wasn't getting airplay. MAYBE the genre charts could have digital sales factored in, but at a much lower rate than they are now, where it just feels like this trump card that overrides all other factors.

― some dude, Thursday, October 11, 2012 4:35 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

well, obviously there was an irreconcilable problem that the feedback loop had disappeared, right? that radio was just arbitrarily dictating airplay

i mean radio is already fraught w/ payola & etc.

it seems to me the real problem is that online sales produce no demographic information.

like, genre used to be determined by audience, now it's determined by ... the billboard people guessing based on ???

yeah, that's a huge problem

D-40: as i was arguing earlier, just by how the artist in question came up and/or what the song sounds like (often contradictory)

ie Rihanna is and R&B artist so everything she does now is R&B.

*is an

I kind of get the impression payola is actually less of a problem in the post-Act world, because playlists are much more likely to be dictated by some suit at the top then by a radio dj who may be more amenable to an envelope full of bills. Not that that is a case for allowing corporations to buy up 1,000s of stations.

billboard's always pulled this shit though, i can think of twice in the past 15 years where they modified the hot 100 calculation effectively cuz it was skewing too r&b.

thanks to mergers there are no local morning zoo deejays getting paid off.

yeah huge lol at payola being anywhere near as big a problem now as it was ten, twenty, thirty, etc years ago

Glad to see this thread. My own area of special concern, Latin radio, is probably going to be severely affected in similar ways to the problems you guys have identified with R&B and country: first, superstars with with new releases are going to crowd out everyone else; good if you want more Shakira #1s (which I selfishly do), bad if you want to hear any reggaetón besides Daddy Yankee or W&Y or any bachata besides Royce and Romeo (both of which I really, really do). Second, it'll mean that Mexican regional music will be increasingly shut out of the main Latin chart, since airplay is the bread and butter of banda, cumbia, etc. And there'll be a LOT more J.Lo and Pitbull regardless of language or audience embrace. Pap

I think one thing people are forgetting here tho is that the charts aren't the only data radio stations have for determining what is popular. iirc, radio stations (especially better-financed ones) do a TON of focus-grouping. Also, call-ins.

It doesn’t change the fact that Green Day was ROBBED of a number one

Having famously never charted at all over decades now. A shame, really.

I took it to mean that the biggest stores account for an outsize share of the indie market.

i spoke to someone who knows a bit about this stuff bcuz that article confused me too and one thing they mentioned is that along w/ stopping the practice of extrapolation luminate is also requiring indie stores to provide a lot more data when reporting than before i.e. not just "we sold x copies of y album" but further information about the purchases or purchaser that may be beyond the capabilities of many small indie stores. so a net result of that is that larger or more corporate indies i.e. rough trade, amoeba etc who are willing or able to report now have outsized influence in that data tabulation.

i'm not being vague about the "data" to shroud what i'm actually trying to say here, my convo w/ this person didn't get into the specifics of the nature of that data. how much of this dynamic is ideological vs technological (i.e. needing to integrate a certain software or something) i can't really say. but it is alluded to in that guy's statement when he mentions "the rules, regulations, the gerrymandering, the onboarding process." he compares it to redrawing of a district map to box out true indies; perhaps that's true i don't want to undersell the cynicism of a large company just as a rule. but i would point out that luminate is ultimately a company that monetizes data and billboard is not its only client. luminate is used by all record companies, publishers etc anyone whose business is staked on or involved w/ the accurate reporting of streaming and music sales is or may be a customer. those clients are constantly pushing luminate to provide as much data as possible on the consumer. that's not to excuse luminate in any way i'm just trying to provide some context for the utility of this data beyond just the tabulation of charts, historical records etc i prob don't personally buy the more grand ideological conspiracies here i would view it more so thru the lens of tech and data collection. that may be cold comfort or perhaps worse than wanting to destroy indie music depending on your POV but yeah

or i guess luminate/billboard/MRC are all one company now which actually puts a finer point on what i'm saying. billboard isn't even a client for luminate, chart data is useful to them almost as like a loss leader bcuz it generates interest in charts and of course billboard makes some level of money but i'd imagine a much larger and more profitable part of their business is selling subscriptions to clients in the music industry (people like me!) who need their data in order to their jobs. it's essentially bloomberg-ian

Billboard has revised its system of removing songs from the Hot 100 singles chart once they've gotten too old to qualify as contemporary hits. The measure, intended to shorten the amount of time successful songs spend on the Hot 100, knocks 10 tracks off this week's chart — including Swims' "Lose Control," which spent more than two years on the Hot 100 — and in the process cements a record that could take a decade to surpass.

Interesting

https://www.npr.org/2025/10/22/g-s1-94489/billboard-hot-100-chart-changes-songs

Relevancy to this ilx thread is in here I guess--
So be sure to take a moment, light a candle and pause to reflect on such once-immortal, now-vanquished eternals as… [lights dim as a screen bears the words "In Memoriam"] Lady Gaga and Bruno Mars' "Die With a Smile" (60 weeks), Benson Boone's "Beautiful Things" and "Sorry I'm Here for Someone Else" (89 and 32 weeks, respectively), Morgan Wallen's "I'm the Problem" and "Just in Case" (36 and 29 weeks, respectively) and Kendrick Lamar's "Luther (feat. SZA)" (46 weeks), as well as songs by sombr and BigXthaPlug. We'll never know how long they might have lasted under the old system — except in the case of "Lose Control," which we can state with virtual certainty would have left the Hot 100 sometime after the next Ice Age.

Should’ve been done years ago.

i thought this bump was gonna be about the recent articles abt how there were no rap songs in the hot 100's top 40 for the first time since 1990

chartwatchers will celebrate these new rules as they nudge the chart slightly closer resembling those from the times when they enjoyed watching the charts and most of the music on them. at the end of the day tho the changes will do very little to fix the underlying problems causing hits' glacial movement into and out of public consciousness, particularly but not exclusively in the stagnating american market

x-post-- re no rap songs in the top 40 songs of the hot 100 is related to the Billboard change re how long songs can be in that chart as Kendrick Lamar w/ SZA song "Luther" got removed

https://www.billboard.com/music/rb-hip-hop/alchemist-no-rap-songs-hot-100-top-40-since-1990-1236103005/

Billboard article above referenced this 2023 article with reasons why there's less rap on top of charts

https://www.billboard.com/music/rb-hip-hop/hip-hop-no-number-one-albums-singles-charts-reasons-why-1235350404/

Also this 2022 paywalled article

https://www.billboard.com/pro/hip-hop-music-most-popular-genre-dominance-slipping/

From above current Billboard article-

In 2023, there weren’t any rap albums to top the Billboard 200 or rap songs to top the Hot 100, until Lil Uzi Vert‘s third album the Pink Tape in July and Doja Cat‘s song “Paint the Town Red” in September, respectively. Right now, the highest-charting rap song is “Shot Callin” by NBA YoungBoy at No. 44, followed by Cardi B‘s “Safe” (featuring Kehlani) at No. 48 and BigXthaPlug’s “Hell at Night” (featuring Ella Langley) at No. 49.

And from the other Billboard October 2025 article-

At its peak in 2020, hip-hop as a genre accounted for nearly 30 percent of U.S. music consumption. That number dipped to just over 25 percent by 2023 and has hovered around 24 percent through October 2025. For comparison, the same chart week in 2020 featured 16 rap songs in the Top 40; two years ago, there were eight.

One reason might that songs by Taylor Swift, Morgan Wallen, Sabrina Carpenter and anime characters make up 50 percent of the top 40.

the Wallen and Kpop Demon Hunters albums came out in May and June, respectively, it's not like they're new releases.

there are still a few dozen rappers that can reliably get a top 40 hit anytime they put out an album or lead single, but it feels like barely any of them have released an album in the last few months besides Cardi B, and her album really hasn't had the staying power of her debut.

I just mean that if artists could only have one song in the Top 100 (yeah, I know) then there would be about 7 rap songs in the top 40. Diversity gets crowded out by these big albums that dominate the singles chart.

I'm just disappointed that no one has been able to make a viral video out of Bring in the Katz.

― MarkoP, Wednesday, 18 December 2013 23:53 (twelve years ago)

people are doing line dances to it on tiktok!

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DTTlBETjliJ/?igsh=MTV6YzA5NTdtdzUycQ==