Visual representations of female techno/house producers

Because the norm is male, a producer who is not identified as female is assumed to be male, not left as an anonymous genderless blank. Having other people assume you are male, when you're not, is having other people assume you're a different human being than you are. It's tantamount to lying. Why are you suggesting that it's weird that producers would not want to lie about themselves?

this is what I feel, like, the nina kraviz one above, she just looks like "a woman". is she supposed to look more like a man or something? or less feminine? it's a photo of a woman, wearing fairly non-descript clothes, in low light.

(Xpost - the thread topic is "visual representations of female techno/house producers" not "women on dance music album covers" dude)

it's focussed so far on covers. and videos, i mean dance music videos... how many of them have you even watched in the last five years? they aren't even a part of dance music.

It isn't female producers who emphasise their gender more than male ones, it's male producers who are able to exist as if their gender is unremarkable.

this is exactly right.

where the artist is depicted in stereotypically feminine ways

it's a picture, of a woman! what's stereotypical about it? and anyway, half of this debate is about album covers being done in stereotypical ways, big surprise when the person designing them is prob lower on the artistic food chain than someone drawing on school desk.

i don't think the Cassy cover supports anything tbh unless nudity is stereotypically feminine

well, it's widely believed that female nudity is more "sexy" and worth seeing than male nudity. (there was that awful piece in the graun Guide when that male stripper film came out that argued that male nudity was always funny and unsexy)

Tuomas you realise on the cover of that first Dinky album she looks like on of the models in Robert Palmer's "Addicted to Love" video, right?

Didn't realise slicked-back hair was such a challenge to hegemony tbh

that's the only time cassy has ever appeared on the cover of any of her releases. her follow-up commercial mix looked like:

http://s.discogss.com/image/R-2058046-1261421407.jpeg

i've been fighting the urge to post the orig Diamond Dogs cover

if you're arguing that this

http://images-jp.amazon.com/images/P/B000084TT7.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

is deglamourised or ungendered or makes no play with sexuality then lol x infinity

Tuomas you realise on the cover of that first Dinky album she looks like on of the models in Robert Palmer's "Addicted to Love" video, right?

She's also smoking a cigarette, and you know what they say about those kind of girls.

Tuomas I think the reason you're tying yourself in knots a bit here is because you're trying to tackle both "visual representation of women vs men in techno" and "why are women presenting themselves in this way in this supposedly faceless genre?" at the same time.

This is also overlooking people like Anja Schneider and Maya Jane Coles who have very recognisable images and aren't particularly sexualised. I mean even Ellen Allien's album covers post-Berlinette are about disguising or adorning her face in different ways, Bjork-style.

where the artist is depicted in stereotypically feminine ways

it's a picture, of a woman! what's stereotypical about it?

For example, the colours and lighting (seductive, soft, deep reds; as opposed to more stark colours often found in photos of male techno artists), her pose (leaning forwards, more passive than active, slightly sexual), the way her long hair (very much a feminine signifier) covers her eyes (denying the agency her stare could give her, further objectifying her)... Do you really think every photo of a woman is equally feminine, regardless of the staging/pose/colours/etc?

if you're arguing that this

http://images-jp.amazon.com/images/P/B000084TT7.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

is deglamourised or ungendered or makes no play with sexuality then lol x infinity

I wasn't arguing that, I was saying that the cover of Anemik clearly depicts her in a more stereotypically feminine way.

in 1940 maybe

I think some people are confusing "sexuality" and "feminity" in this thread, they are not fully interchangeable terms.

tbh i find this whole conversation weird because i'm sort of the opposite of Tuomas -- without thinking very hard about it I'd assume that the visual style of female producers is actually less stereotypically "feminine", less "sexy", more androgynous and arty?

and i've always assumed there was a reaction against the podium dancer image: a female producer, in order to be taken seriously in a genre where there's a common hypersexualised image of female consumers, needs to make herself visibly different. So the visual style of female producers, in my head at least, tends towards sharp haircuts, simple cuts of clothing, avant makeup. Not "masculine" but trying to avoid a certain set of "sexy" female signifiers.

Maybe it's just cos I mostly listen to those corny german fuxors?

(to me this also ties into what spacecadet was talking about upthread)

Perhaps the Dinky album cover is intended to fool Nicola Roberts fans* into buying the album?

*Most niche accidental demographic ever obviously.

For example, the colours and lighting (seductive, soft, deep reds; as opposed to more stark colours often found in photos of male techno artists), her pose (leaning forwards, more passive than active, slightly sexual), the way her long hair (very much a feminine signifier) covers her eyes (denying the agency her stare could give her, further objectifying her)... Do you really think every photo of a woman is equally feminine, regardless of the staging/pose/colours/etc?

not at all, but this photo to me is more arty rather than anything else.

certainly it's clear judging by reactions here that it's a matter of opinion, at best.

also given she has long hair, should she shave it to avoid being criticised for a feminine album cover? or just not appear on the cover? i don't really know what's expected of women here, to be more like the men, or to be less like themselves, if it is themselves, or what.

tbh i find this whole conversation weird because i'm sort of the opposite of Tuomas -- without thinking very hard about it I'd assume that the visual style of female producers is actually less stereotypically "feminine", less "sexy", more androgynous and arty?

"Less feminine" and "less sexy" compared to what? My point wasn't to compare house/techno to other genres, some of which obviously have more stereotypical and/or sexual depictions of female artists, rather than to talk about the disparities within this particular genre.

i think the problem with that is that this has to be discussed in the context of album covers as a whole, not least because there such an irrelevant sidenote to techno itself.

they're

My point wasn't to compare house/techno to other genres, some of which obviously have more stereotypical and/or sexual depictions of female artists, rather than to talk about the disparities within this particular genre.

sorry, I don't understand this, could you rephrase please?

for a start, less "feminine" and less "sexy" compared to what other women are wearing on the dancefloor.

I'm not saying my assumption is right: I'm saying it's interesting that my unreflective assumption was the opposite of yours.

Can you name many albums by straight male artists that would have a cover like that?

http://www.udancecn.com/uploads/Tiga%20-%20DJ%20Kicks.jpg

My point wasn't to compare house/techno to other genres, some of which obviously have more stereotypical and/or sexual depictions of female artists, rather than to talk about the disparities within this particular genre.

sorry, I don't understand this, could you rephrase please?

Read the first post: I was discussing about the disparity between record covers of male and female techno/house producers. Obviously if you bring people on the dancefloor to the discussion, that's a somewhat different (though I guess related) issue.

Sic, Tiga doesn't appeart to be nude on that cover...?

he's lying down and poking his pert little bum in the air though

for our enjoyment

the tart

Read the first post: I was discussing about the disparity between record covers of male and female techno/house producers. Obviously if you bring people on the dancefloor to the discussion, that's a somewhat different (though I guess related) issue.

you're talking about the disparities within this particular genre in terms of producers' visual representation being "masculine" or "feminine" or "gender neutral" but if you won't allow reference outside the genre, or to different people involved in the genre, how do we know what counts as a "masculine" or a "feminine" or a "gender neutral" visual representation?

You have a sense that the visual representation of male techno artists is particularly "gender neutral": where does this come from if not through a comparison to the visual representation of male artists in other genres?

what is a "masculine" visual representation in techno? what does it look like? is it only ever there when a male producer is trying to make his masculinity a selling point? why would that be? have you ever listened to a techno artist who felt faceless and assumed they were female and been surprised to discover they were male?

you won't allow reference outside the genre, or to different people involved in the genre, how do we know what counts as a "masculine" or a "feminine" or a "gender neutral" visual representation?

I'm not saying I'm not allowing comparisons, I was just saying that it's kind of a pointless excercise to bring images from other genres where overtly gendered and/or sexualized depictions of artists are more common to this discussion, because of course you're gonna find more glaring examples there. I just thought it was interesting to discuss the aesthetic choices and limitations within this particular genre of music.

xpost ^ ding ding ding

males' gender is discursively "neutral" (their gender is a "negative" attribute; it clears the way for other attributes to flood in, cf "wimpy" "tough" "funny" "heroic" "dull"); females' gender is discursively "positive" - it sticks out, is something to notice - "The Top 10 Female DJs in the World!! Pg 23" etc; it doesn't get out of the way, makes it harder for other attributes to find purchase

why this should be any different in the case of techno album covers i have no idea

http://fashion.telegraph.co.uk/news-features/TMG8112545/DJ-fashion.html

The difference is, as I've tried to explain, that techno's conventions of pseudonyms and imagery would allow female artists to embrace this "neutrality" (instead of "positivity" (which can be a burden too)) far more easily than in, say, pop.

maybe the thing that you think is neutrality is masculinity

I dunno, are cosmic visiona or Nature scenery or abstract shapes that typically feature on these Record covers masculine?

what gender are the artists they represent?

Is it really? Just look at the cover of the 2003 Dinky album I linked to in the first post, and compare it to Anemik: don't you think there's a big difference in degrees of conventional feminity there?

― Tuomas, Tuesday, October 9, 2012 10:55 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

One thing that's being overlooked here is that Dinky's album covers seem intimately tied up with the sound of each record - Anemik is by far her prettiest album (leaving aside the ambient debut under the Miss Dinky moniker which was pretty in a v. different way) and certainly her warmest, and I think the cover is really a play on that. Whereas likewise the cover of Black Cabaret makes perfect sense given the music. This is not to say that there's nothing to discuss here, but I think it's a bridge too far to attribute the shift in her appearance to some straightforward desire to make herself more conventionally appealing. It's more a case that the visuals are picking up on some pre-existing idea that the music is already more sensual than before (whether this is really or true or not; see below).

It's a common feature of basically all the artists discussed in this thread that, when they do invoke their own appearance, it can seem quite deliberate vis a vis the sound of the music being put forward. This is separate but linked to (in fact may form a subset of) the phenomenon discussed above of audiences/critics over-investing in the idea of the gender of (particular) female producers expressing itself as a point of difference in the music itself.

The preponderance of examples of female artists appearing along the lines of Anemik doesn't strike me as notable (esp. given women can still get away with not doing this more successfully in house/techno than just about anywhere else) so much as the relative absence of men doing likewise. I recall that Steve Bug appeared with his shirt open and his six pack showing on one of his albums (appropriately enough titled Sensual, though the music could have stood to be more so, from memory), but that kind of thing is the obv. the exception rather than the rule.

The discourse and environment that leads to all dudes appearing stern in black and white has already been discussed above. However my own theory is that visual representations of men in (a male centric) dance music culture tend to distinguish between the creative-leader (the producer or DJ) and the receptive-crowd: the dj/producer generates emotions whereas the dancer feels and expresses them. I think a lot of the "rules" around how male producers and DJs are depicted is a reflection of this desire to elevate them above the feeling/receptive/expressive crowd. There is an irony to this in that you'd think that dance music producers and DJs should ideally be exemplary dancers first and foremost, with an unparalleled understanding of how the music works on the body, rather than blind painters.

Arguably women are considered to fall outside this dynamic almost entirely - certainly they are categorised as neither the leaders nor the followers in proper dance music - and I think this means their visuals can seem to tread the line between creative and receptive, acting and appearing, persons who create sensations and persons to whom sensations happen. Their bodies and their visual appearance are therefore more commonly used as visual depictions of the effect of their own music: in Dinky's case, it's as if she's being physically transformed by the music she's been making.

Not surprisingly, this practice of female producers using their bodies as a canvas can sometimes lead to these ultra-refined image of image of image of woman depictions - the way that Cassy and Nina Kraviz appear on their album covers it's like it's not even them, but a kind of hyper-abstracted depiction of the feeling-woman that just happens to use their own body (in other senses of course these two photos are very different from one another). But (in contrast to the effect when men use photos of women in this way) I think it's often expressive of this kind of double-role that female producers can inhabit, and actually works to create a sense of commonality with the audience; that sense that they already dancing beside us. This is probably also at least part of the motivation for some of the more mystical/spiritual fetishes that some people have for female producers; the imagined warmth of their work (vis a vis comparable male artists) grounded in the notion that their bodies are intricately connected in with the brain/machine loop of the creative process.

There is an irony to this in that you'd think that dance music producers and DJs should ideally be exemplary dancers first and foremost, with an unparalleled understanding of how the music works on the body, rather than blind painters.

isn't it more just that this restraint is seen as cool? there some good bits in Feiern about this, think it's Carsten Klemann who describes always having an ideal of the DJ as the guy who only gives a little smile now and again, even if he's really enjoying it.

Coming back to a thread when it's come to a different place, then.

LG: As far as the comment upthread about podcasts or downloaded "unofficial" mixes never having the artist's picture, nearly every RA mix has the artist image attached! I think they're pretty atypical as far as that goes, but it does seem like a notable exception.

Tim: Thanks for that post. In both form and content, that's giving me something to think about.

I never listen to RA mixes, for whatever reason. Nothing against them per se, it just somehow stopped being a habit for me sometime ago, I now realise.

One thing that's being overlooked here is that Dinky's album covers seem intimately tied up with the sound of each record - Anemik is by far her prettiest album (leaving aside the ambient debut under the Miss Dinky moniker which was pretty in a v. different way) and certainly her warmest, and I think the cover is really a play on that. Whereas likewise the cover of Black Cabaret makes perfect sense given the music.

I agree that Anemik is her prettiest album, but to me Blackcabaret has a rather smooth and pretty sound too; loads of warm and melodic synth lines there. And still you can see why she chose that pic for that album... Meaning: there are always alternatives, if you do a pretty, warm-sounding album, you don't necessarily have to represent the sound with stereotypical feminine images of warmth and prettiness.

But (in contrast to the effect when men use photos of women in this way) I think it's often expressive of this kind of double-role that female producers can inhabit, and actually works to create a sense of commonality with the audience; that sense that they already dancing beside us.

I sorta agree with this, and it bring to mind one of my favourite electronic album covers of all time:

http://dynamitmusic.ru/uploads/posts/2011-12/1324998750_marusha-raveland.jpg

Even though this is another body-shot of a female artist, it's not a passive image at all... Marusha's pose, expression, the way her body is framed signals agency and self-assuredness, even if she's also lost in the "female" expressiveness of her body. Though, admittedly, the more passive nature of images like the Nina Kraviz album cover can be used to signify a more introspective nature of the music within; I'm not saying you should always view these sort of images critically, I'm just critical of their prevalence when compared to covers of male artists doing similar music.

And, taking into your account your theory, it's interesting to compare the Marusha cover to another similar cover from the same era:

http://www.freakenergy.ru/uploads/posts/2009-11/1257775278_sven_vath_accident_in_paradise_1993_retail_cd.jpg

Sven Väth is moving his body, and he is among the dancers, but he's not one of them; rather, hes a leader, a shaman leading the other (female) bodies to dance.

I think the thrust of this thread is Tuomas wanting to just be all "WS Dinky" but he has to jump through 30 or 40 socio-political hoops to get there

Also, unlike the women around him, he doesn't appear be enjoying his bodily movement at all.

(xpost)

So this Nina Kraviz video on Resident Advisor has ruffled a few feathers. The "bathtub scene" is almost self-parody.

http://www.residentadvisor.net/feature.aspx?1765

loved what lauren martin tweeted about it last night, pretty much says it all

Lauren Martin ‏@codeinedrums 12h
The very fact that people feel compelled to lecture Kraviz in pieces that limply apologise for their own sexist sentiments is AAAGGGHHHH.

Lauren Martin ‏@codeinedrums 12h
Could you imagine, say, a ghettotech DJ being warned from afar about how his "exaggerated masculinity" could be "misconstrued"?

Lauren Martin ‏@codeinedrums 12h
"She's a great DJ & producer & travels all over the world being paid to do so & to acclaim but SHE TOOK A BUBBLE BATH ON CAMERA *EYE ROLL*"

Lauren Martin ‏@codeinedrums 12h
The idea that in being a woman she is sly/manipulative for selfish benefit is bullshit & feeds into a male-centric fear of female sexuality.

Lauren Martin ‏@codeinedrums 12h
"Listen Nina, hen, you seem okay with being attractive, mind toning it down a bit? It makes our dicks tingle and we can't concentrate."

I'm sure there are endless moronic and nasty viewpoints, it is techno afterall, but if this was a guy, this type of video, it would definitely be ripped to pieces too, perhaps not in a way that reflects wider societal sexism but the criticisms would still be highly restrictive about what they can/can't do with their art.

To me the criticism is mostly coming from the side of techno that hates anyone showing identity or doing anything besides releasing XGH0001 followed by XGH0002.

That said, the video itself is pretty 90s and vapid imo, regardless of Nina herself or her music (I've no real opinion on her, no ill will) it's like "omg airports are lonely, the life of a travelling DJ" - it's all really old ground and the kind of thing that I've seen parodied a few times.

Could you imagine, say, a ghettotech DJ being warned from afar about how his "exaggerated masculinity" could be "misconstrued"?

I absolutely could, yes. I'm fairly sure I've read (or made) this kind of criticism about hard techno even minus sexist lyrics.

just hoping the net result is that Seth Troxler stops taking his shirt off