Stevie Wonder-- C or D?

http://www.mtv.co.uk/channel/mtvuk/news/06062008/423854/stevie_wonder_european_tour

Man, is this guy a great drummer. I'm listening to "Bird of Beauty" and "Have a Talk With God."

"Higher Ground"! He's got a cupla good backbeats on the last album.

He's like Ringo -- he gets a great SOUND from his instrument. You can distinguish him from other players.

He's hanging off the back of the beat even more than Charlie Watts = CLASSIC

A couple really distinctive things I've noticed about his drumming are that a) he tends to bust out with triplets on the cymbal against an otherwise straight-8th base and b) his tendency to use the ride cymbal in the function of the hi-hat, which makes those tricky cymbal rhythms sound clearer than they would played on the hat.

"What'd I Say" = #1 influence on Stevie as a drummer imo

Yeah, that makes sense -- that kind of busyness. He plays fills that I don't think anybody else could get away with on "Bird of Beauty."

Btw, who was the drummer on "What'd I Say"? That mf is my hero.

Also, the hats/ride tend to be mixed LOUD on Stevie's records. Cymbals, cymbals, cymbals.

But yeah, basically Stevie is a monster on the trap.

also he does a lot of overdubbing & multitracking (ie playing just the cymbals, then just the snare, and/or multiple hi-hat parts like on 'i wish')

Listening to "Bird of Beauty", the most amazing thing about the drumming is how ably he inserts all his oddball fills right into the middle of the groove, instead of breaking from the groove to fill. He just inserts all these other drums around the maintained pattern.

xp: I feel like you just told me Santa Claus doesn't exist.

I believe he also played drums on (and produced) "It's A Shame."

'i wish' is a pretty good one to hear how he does his shit btw, there a lots of times when the hi-hat on the right is playing something different than the one on the left or when there are two-handed fills when both hi-hats are still going. not that he always breaks it down like this, but listening to 'bird of beauty' there are parts where it sounds likely.

But on the real side:

Marvin Gaye began as a drummer too. Say what you want about Berry Gordy, but he knew what we most look forward to in a song.

Listening to "Bird of Beauty", the most amazing thing about the drumming is how ably he inserts all his oddball fills right into the middle of the groove, instead of breaking from the groove to fill. He just inserts all these other drums around the maintained pattern.

ha, that's because he is literally maintaining the groove on one track and doing oddball fills on another, i'm pretty sure.

not that i'm knocking it, that shit was ahead of its time and he makes it sound great.

'it's a shame' is awesome, i had no idea he played drums on it. the soul band i'm in does that song, i'll have to listen a little bit closer to the drum part.

yup, he at least double-tracked the hi-hats on 'it's a shame', maybe more. check the breakdown.

Jordan droppin' science

yeah this is fab, Jordan; you're helping me hear the songs differently (better, I think); this is the kind of shit I really come to ILM for.

No way I can believe we have to discuss this. Dud? Really? Maybe not even if you've only listened to I Just Called To Say I Love You. The man's body of work is just amazing.

Yeah, thanks, Jordan.

Listening to "Bird of Beauty", the most amazing thing about the drumming is how ably he inserts all his oddball fills right into the middle of the groove, instead of breaking from the groove to fill. He just inserts all these other drums around the maintained pattern.

And however he did it, this is OTM.

Overrated? Not likely. Underrated if anything. Whenever I put on any of the 5 70s albums listed above I find it hard to think of anyone who is not just a better all-rounder, but better individually at playing/writing/singing full-stop.

I got Talking Book and Innervisions in a boot sale.

TB has Superstition, but too many ballads for me.

I'd play Innervisions anytime.

Any Time.

that's more a S&D case, isn't it? no doubt he'll always be classic for all he did in the 70s.

Guys, breathing is overrated. Dud.

Anybody who says D should have their vote taken away, just like the idiots who didnt vote for Rickey Henderson for the HOF.

interesting wiki entry, thanks for the mention of a baseball hero I had no knowledge of.

what i'd really love to know is what order he tended to record his tracks in. did he do the drums first, and then did he start with the kick & snare or cymbals? did he use a click (or the early 70s equivalent)?

Can't help you there. All I know is the story about "It's A Shame" as related in Dennis Coffey's book. He tried to get Uriel and Pistol to play it the way he wanted it. They did it over and over but he just wasn't satisfied so they got up off their drum kits and said "YOU play it!"

Actually maybe you could go over to soulful detroit and see if Dennis Coffey or Bob Babbitt or somebody could tell you more.

"interesting wiki entry, thanks for the mention of a baseball hero I had no knowledge of."

ha ha, no problem

I think he's over-rated and given too much praise.

Dud

I think jj meant to say "Aretha."

Rickey Henderson/Stevie Wonder analogy really works, both show overwhelming technical mastery and dedication to craft of course but also exude style & seem to blow away the competition by sheer force of their larger-than-life personalities.

xpost heretic

ok, a few too many drippy ballads, but seriously: Superstition, If You Really Love Me, etc....genius.
I'll never forget standing outside my school as a teenager in the early 80s and this black guy walks past with a massive ghettoblaster pumping out Sir Duke. That intro blew my mind.

Dud for the mu-mus and the lyrical platitudes, some classic music.

The song he wrote for Obama was cringe-worthy.

what i'd really love to know is what order he tended to record his tracks in. did he do the drums first, and then did he start with the kick & snare or cymbals? did he use a click (or the early 70s equivalent)?

Have you seen the "Greatest Albums" doc about Songs in the Key of Life? Haven't seen it in awhile, but there may be a scene where he breaks his process down. In any case, it's an interesting program.

Superstition 16 track tape:

01 - Kick Drum Mic
02 - Drum Overhead L
03 - Drum Overhead R
04 - Lead Vocal 1
05 - Lead Vocal 2
06 - Clavinet Dub 1 through tape echo
07 - Clavinet Dub 2 through tape echo
08 - Clavinet Dub 1 L
09 - Clavinet Dub 1 R
10 - Clavinet Dub 2 L
11 - Clavinet Dub 2 R
12 - Clavinet Dub 2 Room Mic L
13 - Clavinet Dub 2 Room Mic R
14 - Horns Dub 1
15 - Horns Dub 2
16 - Moog Bass

yeah i think the drums on superstition are straight-up live.

wow, i never noticed that superstition had synth bass before. and it sounds so sloppy by itself (but is obv. super funky in the track). thanks for posting that.

I Just Called to Say I Love You is much maligned but it's an incredibly good song.

A very good singer and songwriter. I was always amazed he could play music on the piano being blind. He started out as a singles artist and then became such a great albums artists too.

And he is still only 58 years old which is also amazing.

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Don't get me wrong, he's a genius. Or he was, at least...

I mean,

"If You Really Love Me" is one of his best songs but doesn't always get the "Top Stevie Songs" nod, which is a shame.

haha, I have Where I'm Coming From on right now, and was just thinking that "If You Really Love Me" is a bit clunky in execution, and that if he'd written it a few years later, he would have structured it a lot better.

The song was pretty inescapable when it was released as a single (it was #1 in the UK) but I think a lot of the criticism is because it's by Stevie Wonder. If the song was written and performed by Paul McCartney then it would be seen as mediocre at worst in his back catalogue, not particularly good or bad, more a reflection of mid 80s. But it's Stevie Wonder and it's his worst song. But if you're a songwriter and that's your worst song, then you're doing pretty well.

It's not even a terrible song and unlike a lot of truck driver key changes, it gives him the opportunity to push his voice a bit in the last chorus. The cha-cha-cha right at the end is unnecessary and grating though.

I actually quite like IJCTSILY, but I also really like Ebony & Ivory, bar the lyrics. I think Stevie is gifted enough to sell even subpar material (the rest of the Woman In Red soundtrack is fairly gruelling however).

That concert sounds amazing , Josh. Do I Do really is a fantastic track!

If the song was written and performed by Paul McCartney then it would be seen as mediocre at worst in his back catalogue

it's a similar sort of charm to "wonderful christmastime" really, though it's a bit more tuneful than that

I also love Wonderful Christmastime

Was Jesse Jackson onstage?

He was seated in the audience nearby. The last time I saw him out and about was at Aretha's final concert in 2017. He was standing and laughing and waving at her. Last night he could barely move. Factor in his age (83) and between that and Parkinson's things did not seem great, which is why Stevie was probably so moved by his presence.

john prine did a great cover, heartbreaking stuff
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSalNdbnyrA

Like I wrote, I don't personally hate the song, its corniness and contemporaneous ubiquity aside. Stevie makes everything better. But there are lots of reasons I consider (at the very least his recording) objectively bad. There are the chord changes, which are pretty boring and obvious, more objectionable from one of the most gloriously sophisticated songwriters of all time. Then there's the fact that it was clearly played by/written on one of those chord generating cheapo keyboards we all had at the time, right down to the "cha-cha-cha," which was one of the preset end fills. Then there's the key change, which is also lame and obvious, as well as the sentiments, also lame and obvious, however proudly so. Thankfully, Stevie had written and played a million good songs by that point. The only thing that would have made "Love You" worse is if it ended up his late-career "My Ding-a-ling," but instead it simply sounds like an easy, lazy, harmless layup. Which, again, is mostly accentuated by it being by Stevie Wonder, who everyone knows can do better.

Plus, he sang it with Clair Huxtable.

I'm with Josh on that song.

x-post - Jesse Jackson was also at the suburban DC Aretha Franklin show I saw in 2017 and was seated in the crowd and waved briefly, but he didn't look that well health-wise.

oh no! earnest song! oh no! this song is actually fine imo

the whole purported terribleness thing is so warmed-over as to be boring see: jack black in high fidelity

I realize humanity has proven there's no bottom to its stupidity and conspiracy-buying paranoia, so perhaps this shouldn't be a surprise.

tbf most of the claims are facetious but still...