Project for an ILM blog/site/publication

A self-contained podcast or a internet radio show might be a good idea.

On the written side, i like the idea of fleshing out an artist or EOY poll into a short book and publishing via Amazon. Unlikely to make vast amounts of money but might pay for server costs.

Server costs are already paid-for, kinda. We could certainly incubate it here, at least. If it got to be too big to handle that's the good kind of problem, right?

when i suggested using ILM polls i meant more to help fill out a daily website -- that kind of thing seems like a nice way to beef up the content of a site and get people clicking around but something like an ebook or quarterly magazine would probably be better served with longform criticism/journalism. (xpost)

a quarterly print digest of usernames without annotation or explanation

the finest only

it's worth thinking about why ILM "works" (when it does). to my mind the magic mechanism is the question-and-answer format, and the back and forth generated by the answers (which often provoke new questions, etc). if you plucked the "best" and "most interesting" writers here and asked them to write a bunch of stand-alone articles, you might have something good, but it wouldn't capture what's great about ILM. the particular flavor of it wouldn't be there. so i'm sort of agreeing with kate in that i think ILM is already in its optimal form, for better or for worse.

that said maybe this new thing wouldn't just have to be stand-alone articles. the singles jukebox is a good example of something that thinks outside that format. although the various mini-reviews there don't interact with each other or propel each other the way threads here do.

in any case i think the only way to have something that isn't ILM, but which captures what ILM is good at, needs to have some kind of supercharged comments culture at its core, as the very basis for what it's doing. there are very, very few websites that have reliably great comments that aren't just one-off responses but which carry on their own narratives. so maybe "comments" as such isn't the way to do it, i don't know.

How about something along the lines of Frank's Why Music Sucks zine?

E.g multiple pieces responding to a question or proposition.

And responding to one another

yes, something like that! though it's the "responding to one another" part that's tricky, even just logistically. but yeah! [disclosure: i have never actually read why music sucks :(]

yeah i don't mean to sound like i'm pushing for just long thinkpieces or something -- i think it'd be great if we had a format that captured a bit of the argumentative/persuasive spirit of ILM threads and included multiple viewpoints on a given topic. i just worry about that kind of 'everybody gets a turn' stuff ending up becoming the meat of the project, and wonder whether it's possible for that not to eventually get insular to people not participating, the same way the message board would be less fun to read for a lurker or the unconverted.

ah now that i am actually reading this thread (err..) i can see that several people have already voiced this, i.e.:

yeah if there's any mileage in this (which...there isn't) it's not going to be in long-form pieces, ilx's raison d'être is conversation (or...whatever). the back-and-forth. this is something professional/paid music (and non-music) journalism is actually lacking, too.

― lex pretend, Saturday, September 15, 2012 1:56 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

one old idea i'd had that i alluded to above, as far as a singles jukebox-y approaches to things besides singles, is to have running conversations about a given album that would take the form of a series of reviews or pieces about it, perhaps weekly. so say there's an album that 2 people have different takes on -- you'd run those two pieces a week apart, and if the first guy wanted to respond to the 2nd, there could be a 3rd week. and for some really divisive or popular record where there are 30 different people with different passionate takes, you could run a piece a week for half a year, as long as people keep signing up to write about it (although maybe they'd be required to read every previous take so that if they feel they'd have nothing new to add they'd just drop out and let the 'thread' die).

maybe daily would be better than weekly to keep the momentum high and not drag things out, i'm just thinking in terms of giving people time to really come up with substantial, original perspectives.

End result of this convo is gonnna be "we're getting google ads" isnt it

How about something along the lines of Frank's Why Music Sucks zine?

E.g multiple pieces responding to a question or proposition.

― Tim F, Sunday, September 16, 2012 5:57 PM (18 minutes ago) Bookmark

would be fun

ah and LocalGarda and kate herself have said similar

i am redundant

xpost those are really interesting ideas, about how to get longer-form pieces that are part of a conversation. i mean even just a baseline "point-counterpoint" format would be a huge step forward from the "here is an article, now comment on it" format of 99% of the sites out there. or as Tim suggested, each "issue" could comprise, say, 4 questions, each of which is answered by two or more writers, with space at the bottom for you to write your own answer in. just, you know, spitballin here.

Do it conference style - when ppl pitch topics they should pitch in panels w/ the other respondents already lined up and ready to go. "I'd like to write about 1960s Belarusian pop, giving 3 perspectives on the genre along w/ Tim F and Tracer Hand," or whatever.

also a good idea

yes well the more of that sort of prep the better, usually

i'm also sympathetic to the podcast idea - presumably a panel discussion around a question or album or proposition - because the conversational aspect of it comes way closer to ILM's core mechanic than pretty much any "print" style format i can envision. there are drawbacks to that though. first of all you have to listen to the damn thing which requires a bit more focus and time than reading a couple of articles does. second the participants all have to be in the same place at the same time, they have to be good talkers, they have to be recorded well, they have to be edited well, they need an experienced moderator/host, and there's little to no opportunity for public interaction with the debate generated except in some pitiful after-the-fact comment section underneath the soundfile that no one will ever see or use because they've listened to it straight from their podcast folder on their ipod, not on the web page. this last part may not matter - maybe none of it matters - maybe a podcast is the best idea of all! i don't know.

i kinda hate podcasts. i wouldn't mind if someone transcribed them to text but reading >>> listening

i suppose we could just have a rolling ILM thread and let people who are on the board when something's being worked on sign up/pitch to contribute to things. would be kind of funny to set up some kind of e-mail system or 'staff board' for the same people to communicate about the same things with a slightly different aim.

Maybe one way forward might be to colonise an already existing music website. Not necessarily by doing articles for that siteas such, but by creating some sort of autonomous ILM zone as a bolt-on entity. This would solve problems like hosting and building the functional infrastructure, but there would also be advertising deals already in place and you would straightaway have access to a readership from outside of these four walls (I see this as the biggest initial challenge). It might also ease the pressure of having to add fresh content every damn day. The main benefit to the host site would be an increase in both the amount and diversity of credible content but also I can think of a couple of UK sites who might jump at the chance of reaching a more diverse audience as well as extending the sort of music they cover without warping their brand too much. It would obv have to be a good match and you'd have to reach a deal on how the finance worked, but it could be an interesting project for everyone.

Vokle works quite well for this. I watch a regular cycling discussion programme on it called Tourchats. It aloows the host/producer to take in text and video questions, features a live text chatroom. Not quite as polished as some pre-recorded podcasts but the immediate feedback mechanisms make up for it.

xposts to Thand

Maybe one way forward might be to colonise an already existing music website. Not necessarily by doing articles for that siteas such, but by creating some sort of autonomous ILM zone as a bolt-on entity.

Pitchfork presents Altered Zings

On the downside, Vokle has a spectacularly pretentious sting that plays before all shows, discussion about that may end up dominating all shows.

I kinda like the podcast idea, but how could it work without including the actual music? I can't imagine a handful of us talking about stuff you can't hear simultaneously appealing to anyone who isn't us.

well i proposed the Rifftrax-ish idea of having running commentary to an album -- you could extend that to a 'mix' of songs, maybe publicly available on Spotify or something

i.e. something you can sync the podcast up to if you wish to hear what's being discussed

Surprised at how many people enjoy podcasts tbh. Requires dedication to sitting & listening somewhere; would much rather read in my own time.

live ilm FAPcast discussing track as it plays faintly on the jubebox in the corner of the pub

i'm not personally big on podcasts (really just can't bring myself to carve out much listening time for something besides music) but i understand the appeal and feel like it would be a worthwhile component to include in something like this, alongside text.

um not to shoehorn a plug in here or anything but: me & EZSnappin have been doing a music podcast for about a couple of months and I think I speak for both of us in saying that we'd be happy to contribute in whatever way to this goal, though I think the both of us agree that our podcast def has some ways to go before either of us are comfortable with it being affiliated with any type of professional endeavour. But I'm not even sure if you just want to do one podcast with a revolving cast or if you want to try to develop a few different podcast ideas simultaneously or what. Just putting that out there...

I'm sure that several of IlX's resident deejays would be happy to contribute mixes, no talking required.

Its not like we're going to stop making them anyway.

whole new site is authored and admin'd by Whiney and consists only of Whiney ranking threads from worst to least worst

I kinda like the podcast idea, but how could it work without including the actual music? I can't imagine a handful of us talking about stuff you can't hear simultaneously appealing to anyone who isn't us.

I think little inserts where people talk about things or play a track and talk about it, would have potential. You don't actually hear a lot of that, it's not easy to do but it could be good.

i kinda hate podcasts. i wouldn't mind if someone transcribed them to text but reading >>> listening

― Mordy, Sunday, September 16, 2012 10:26 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Surprised at how many people enjoy podcasts tbh. Requires dedication to sitting & listening somewhere; would much rather read in my own time.

― kinder, Sunday, September 16, 2012 10:39 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

otm and otm. they ARE popular, across most fields i've seen them in, but i can't fathom why - they're so time-consuming and attention-consuming in comparison to reading

they're for commuting and walking and lying awake, for me, times when a book would be inconvenient.

(what i don't get is video news items)

er is "attention-consuming" not p much the point

reading in your own time just means skippable when not conforming to own solipsistic interests usually

obv it depends what the content is, there's nothing worse on a podcast than someone being wheeled in to flatly read out a preprepped essay, same way that reading a conversation onscreen will feel somewhat limited

They're good for working to if you don't need your mind on what you're doing and way less disruptive than e.g. checking ilx

i could read the content of most podcasts in so much less time than it takes to listen to them

i don't really find reading a q&a on screen limited at all

i do agree we'll very probably want a format as skimmable as possible for the venture under discussion

I personally f'ckin' hate podcasts and use them about twice a year at most, but I do know shitloads of people who use them loads and loads, so I can see some point in them. But I don't think they should be the main event.

Re: server space, why not just set-up a free Wordpress-hosted blog and pay for a .com domain through that? Flexible, built-in CMS, and, bar the domain name, it's free. Stick podcast material on Youtube and embed it into pages on the Wordpress site. That way we can concentrate on content and design rather than infrastructure.

i do agree we'll very probably want a format as skimmable as possible for the venture under discussion

ah now

I think little inserts where people talk about things or play a track and talk about it, would have potential.

i just finally edited something well, exactly like this last night featuring a certain one-time ilxor, one current one, and one totally non-one, and it is pretty great iidssm :)

Stick podcast material on Youtube

this seems to misapprehend both syllables of the word "podcast"

For almost 10 years now podcasts have been in the "store", with download buttons labelled "Free", and at one point it just seemed natural and logical that eventually some podcasts would have "$0.99" in that button instead. But this has never happened. To my mind that one change would revolutionize broadcasting, and wildly in Apple's favor. The only reason I can think of for it not happening is that the only way Apple could be sure it wasn't violating copyright law would be to actually listen to every podcast - and get in contact with the producers of each podcast - to make sure all the music was cleared, and well, that would take a staff of thousands

i thought ricky gervaise had a podcast that needed paying for? did that not happen?

also, i am excited about that thing you have just edited :)

Never Not Funny and The Benson Interruption are two pay-by-episode podcasts, as were latter series of Gervais' "abuse a pleasant man" show. I imagine there are plenty of others, and many, many series do "bonus" episodes that require purchase.

xpost

Here's my 2c worth.

1. IMO content should never be mined directly from ILX threads. ILX remains a more precious flower than The Project and making ILX threads more self-conscious would be a horrible thing.

2. ILX threads should TOTALLY serve as petri dishes for Project Pieces though, whether it's ilxors encouraging resident savants to do a Project Piece after a particularly booming post, or ilxors involved in a fertile back-and-forth saying 'b, what would you think about you, c and I taking this to a workshop thread?'

3. Feel like the meat of the thing could be a mix of meaty, depthy solo joints by ilxors, point-counterpoint things harnessing ~the unique strengths of ILX~, and the jukebox model (which should def include old sides as well as new)

4. There could be a private sub-board of workshop threads where solo pieces are critiqued/edited or team pieces are hashed out?

5. I would very much want to volunteer w/r/t film music and classical music; in film music's case, there are currently zero venues in print or online where well-articulated non-fluffy non-fannish writing appears on the regular.

6. DJ Mixes - great idea