amanda palmer's open poem to jonathan chait (and other crimes)

http://yourkickstartersucks.tumblr.com/post/29501935881/penny-arcade-got-528-000-because-they-got-more

But the stupid crap that people got is what they were told they were getting, right? Basically, the money was to help them stop relying on ads on the homepage afaict. (re Penny Arcade)

somebody paid $10 grand to have lunch with two nerds and have one less ad on a nerd website.

that's not really "you got ripped off" so much as

http://photo.goodreads.com/books/1171704928l/115629.jpg

Well, and the fact it wasn't a new creative project, at all. It's the exact same project. The kickstarter was not to continue making the comic and blogging, as they were going to do that regardless. Basically, the "creative" project was to remove one ad from one page on their site. And not the page with the comic on it.

Guys I know you think Amanda Palmer is terrible and I do to and I'ma let you finish but
this is worse

oh lord pac

the penny arcade thing sucks, but i can see people giving money to it in a "i've enjoyed this for free for a long time, here's a chance to show my appreciation" way.

kinda like the current model where you enjoy a bunch of mixtapes from a rapper or producer and then buy their less-good official album because you feel guilty.

Funding for projects only.
A project has a clear goal, like making an album, a book, or a work of art. A project will eventually be completed, and something will be produced by it. A project is not open-ended. Starting a business, for example, does not qualify as a project.

Many of these Kickstarters are less about "I'll deliver you product for your dough" and more about accessibility, playing off the concept of fandom. It... well, it makes me sick.

I get that Gaiman is trying to say that you're getting what's listed, but the point of "bonuses" is that you're somehow enhancing what you have purchased. The higher end of kickstarter that I've seen -- with meet and greets, etc. are typically understood to be ways to solicit more money to get the thing off the ground or to pay bills above and beyond the production cost of the materials that are sold -- live show costs and so on. If this is a show that is presumably selling (many) tickets, and the cost of a CD or whatever is covered by a $15 pledge, then the fluffy upper-tier items are no longer around making sure the thing gets funded -- they're now basically a transaction where you pay $500 and get to meet your favorite artists.

I like it better when I get to meet my artists by, I don't know, approaching them and saying hi. Either you're way famous and it takes $$ and privilege to get time with you, or you're doing it on your own and actually scrapping for dollars and have time to talk to people. This just seems like trying to have it both ways -- it's DIY, but if you want to chill with us, $500.

― ɥɯ ︵ (°□°) (mh), Friday, 14 September 2012 21:25 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^ storming

yeah it seems like people are essentially using this as a new _income_ model rather than a new way to undertake specific projects.

which expressly violates kickstarter's own rules, so maybe somebody should start a campaign to contact them about all this?

if ppl want to give other, famouserer people, money, then i can shake my head or whatever but it seems like its their problem, not mine.

yeah it seems like people are essentially using this as a new _income_ model rather than a new way to undertake specific projects.

― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Friday, September 14, 2012 7:38 PM (17 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yes, exactly, why get investors to fund your business when you can just get a bunch of rubes to give you capital with essentially no strings attached, aside from some crappy reward that you aren't really required to pay out!? and while things like the penny arcade thing are clearly against the site's terms of service, do you really think it's in kickstarter's interest to actually enforce those terms? not likely, since they are usually the biggest income sources. and they spend exactly 0 resources vetting new projects.

also re: failed kickstarter projects, it's a thing: http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-08-21/kickstarter-s-funded-projects-see-some-stumbles

i just think that as consumers/funders we should demand a better model..i can't understand why this is so popular other than the fact that it has a slick interface.

i assume that there might be legit class action suits against people who get $25,000 and then don't provide what they were promising?

if ppl want to give other, famouserer people, money, then i can shake my head or whatever but it seems like its their problem, not mine.

― s.clover, Friday, September 14, 2012 6:56 PM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

would you say this of victims of credit card fraud and the like?

which expressly violates kickstarter's own rules, so maybe somebody should start a campaign to contact them about all this?

oh kickstarter was most definitely contacted...penny arcade has a lot of haters because of their shitty misogyny and there was an uproar about this. kickstarter does not give one single fuck about anything but their fee.

i'm not sure that giving somebody a gob of money to eat lunch with me is exactly the same as identity theft?

oh i thought you were responding to the discussion of people to raised a lot of money via kickstarter and then failed to come through with whatever was promised in a reasonable period of time.

WHO raised

i still can't believe the free food thing. there is oblivious and there is oblivious. people really bring her food before every show??? amazing. and even if it sucks she still has to eat it. so strange. and awkward! i wouldn't let my fans anywhere near me if i had fans. unless they paid at least 5 grand. and brought me food from a reputable restaurant.

I'm a paranoid type, I would worry about food being poisoned or unsanitary or whatever.

especially goth food!

here, amanda, try some of my deviled absinthe salvia eggs!

I thought goth food was just taco bell 69 cents

oh yeah, the not delivering thing is more serious. but they're pretty explicit that there are no guarantees, and that the point of the kickstarter is to give money to something you want to support first and foremost, and get something in return much less. as kickstarter projects turn into entirely other sorts of simple preorder funding models, then that's going to be a real tension which will blow up in lawsuits eventually.

but i've also seen the opposite -- kickstarters that ran into genuine supply and delivery problems with rabid people calling for some poor artisan scissors-maker's blood as a scam artist because their specially sourced magic bamboo delivery didn't work out or w/e so somebody will have to pick out a new christmas present for their cousin.

so i almost feel like "funders" are way worse than project people for the most part. except, obv. for amanda palmer and penny arcade.

oh and the paying for good musicians for the gig in new york...hahahaha! that is soooooo rude! funny, though. sorry, topeka or wherever!

the penny arcade thing sucks, but i can see people giving money to it in a "i've enjoyed this for free for a long time, here's a chance to show my appreciation" way.

There's a weird psychology at work in giving. I realize that I've donated to podcasts I like that have just asked for donations, but never to ones that set up some model where you get "extra content" for signing up for some donation "membership."

so i almost feel like "funders" are way worse than project people for the most part. except, obv. for amanda palmer and penny arcade.

i mean the funders are often guilted (or tricked!) into donating to stuff by their friends/family/idols and i think a lot of people have a genuine addiction to this site (it you look at who funds a project, it displays how many other projects each funder is funding, and some people's numbers are crazy high) so i don't think it's really fair to blame them. plus their only recourse is "social pressure" by way of leaving angry comments on the project page so i don't really get the moral indignity over complaining comments? kind of similar to the early bit on this thread about amanda's criticizers being "whiny"...

ok i got in a fight w/him now, broke down the math
― listen to that wu-tang whistle blowin' (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, September 14, 2012 8:23 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

i feel bad for being like 'fight! fight! fight!' now? but on the other hand, you brought good game.

yeah, we are all "trolls" to these successful panhandlers

http://boingboing.net/2010/05/10/neil-gaimans-awesome.html

That's not that surprising. My colleague tried to get Mitch Albom for a Michigan library event (since he's local) and he wanted $75000.

!!!

oprah's book club changes you

Tue$day$ with Morrie

wait

Tue$day$ with MONAY

75K worth of Old Dead Dude Wisdom

http://mitchalbom.com/d/radio/3732/mitchs-original-music

I am v v proud of m@tt H on this day of our lord.

Gaiman and Palmer starting to gross me out. This thread is a rollercoaster ride of sympathy and disgust.

@ sic. Yes, she does say it will cost $100 per unit for a 7" and arts-and-crafts package:

arts & crafts/7-inch packages, if we sell about 300 of them, adds about another $30k (we’re planning on spending roughly $100 each on the packaging for those, including not only the vinyl but the fun arts-and-crafts activities. oh, and postage/shipping x5)

that's not a per-7" mfg cost, that's for four 7"s and four fancy packages and four hand-made art & crafts doodahs and postage and packing for all four, made and sent separately several weeks apart, plus a storage case for all four, plus postage and packing for the deluxe CD.

I only looked this up bcz you keep saying the $100 mfg number and it seemed too ludicrous to be true btw!

Guys guys, I know this will help ilx dislike her even more, she's really tight bros with Kevin Smith.

they've met twice AFAIK

$100/unit for four fancily packaged, separately mailed 7"s, with a storage case, plus doodahs-- $100/unit is, sure, OK, higher than I'd settle for but I'm not in the business of doodahs so I'm not an authority. Plus, she said, "if we sell 300 of them", from which I inferred that she was planning on selling them. Is she gonna sell them? Don't answer that question. I am so sick of this discussion. Haters gonna hate, suckers gonna support

dude I have no interest in this product (hint: 'doodahs' is not intended to indicate breathless approval), just like I said before "the figures might be bullshit but misrepresenting them is no help"

likewise it's no wonder M@tt got dismissed as a troll when Gaiman at first engaged with him but was then met with "just gravy for the goth millionaire set" "must be some soundguy for $20k lol" and claims that Palmer's wealthy, which she's not, and that bcz he's earned money in the past he doesn't deserve to make money off other projects. it's rhetoric that doesn't help analysis.

i think he was trying to eat his goth cake and have it too. matt, that is. make some valid points and also troll it up a bit.

yeah obv, just no point in being surprised he got called on it

sell = "if that's the amount of pre-orders we get via this in-progress Kickstarter"

looking at the finished page, they got 65. probably either going to have to go lathe-cut or press 300 and quietly sell them on tour without doodahs.

No, I know, sic, and you're right. I didn't mean to imply you were some sucker. Somebody upthread mentioned that dissenting voices might be suffering from 'jealousy' and at first I was like "excuuuuuse me?" but the more I'm thinking about it I think s/he might be on to something. $1.2 million is a fuck of a lot of money and surely there's a part of me that is having pipe dreams about Iron Fortresses Of Eternal Drone and Golden Violas Of Damnation.

I watched the "Oasis" video, thought it was one of the stupidest things I'd ever seen, then watched a couple more, thought "OK, she can sing and write a melody; this is not too different from other things I like well enough", and now I'm a bit disappointed that I'm starting to like her music OK.

I really wanted to hate it!