amanda palmer's open poem to jonathan chait (and other crimes)

just thought i'd toss that tasty bit of chum into the frothing ocean itt

this reminded me of marissa nadler's kickstarter, the goal of which was a more reasonable $11,000:

Marissa Nadler needs your help to record her new full length record.

Hard at work since the release of Little Hells, Marissa has been writing songs and touring extensively, and she is now ready to share her work with you.

Nadler is an independent artist who has a distinct creative vision for her new record. Without the assistance of a record label to help fund the recording of her project Marissa would like this album to be supported by her fans and to stay completely true to her artistic vision. In order to maintain the sonic quality of her output she wants to record in a professional studio. Having toured for the better part of the decade she knows that it is truly the listeners and fellow artists who help keep true music alive and well in this world. She wants to give you the best record she can make and to deliver the strongest project of her career.

The money needed is to pay for studio time at Miner Street studios in Philadelphia. It will pay for the recording of the record, as well as compensating the musicians that will play on the record, and finally the mixing and mastering of the record. The recording dates are set for 15 days in January of 2011, and she truly needs your help. Working a series of odd jobs and struggling to make ends meet, she has no other way to get into a studio, and sincerely wants to continue making records.

neil called me a troll & blocked me. but didn't really respond to any of the shit i was saying or refute it.

and that's part of the problem, not with AP, but when kickstarters offer all these perks that are unrelated to their main goal, it can seem like just fulfilling those will be an unrealistic undertaking. like, will you have to do another kickstarter to design, manufacture, and ship those t-shirts that you promised as an incentive for funding your record?

xp

yknow, i really do have a problem with the kickstarter model. first off the fee they charge is really unjustified as the are complete hands off in vetting the projects, or auditing them later, and their overhead costs must be extremely low - they don't actually DO ANYTHING besides run a website. oh and sue other websites that do similar crowdfunding stuff. between amazon and kickstarter $100K+ of this project went towards transaction fees, which is grotesque.

second - there is actually no legal obligation that the fundees spend to budget or produce the rewards they have said they would produce. kickstarter certainly doesn't put any pressure on fundees who don't meet their deliverables and in their faq states that "social pressure" will ensure fundees do what they say. but plenty of people just pocket the money and never complete the project and the worst that happens is you get a bunch of people pissed off at you.

kickstarter is great for kickstarter, and for fundees, but it is absolutely horrible bargain for funders...you *might* get your product, or you might not, and if you don't you don't get your money back unless the fundee is really nice?! they might spend it on what they budgeted or they might just buy stuff they want?! it's a terrible bargain.

re: marissa nadler -- she delivered a pretty sweet LP and iirc designed it herself and released it herself and everything. reading about 15-20k for the design alone on that AP album is just amazing to me.

marissa nadler is a sweetheart

I get that Gaiman is trying to say that you're getting what's listed, but the point of "bonuses" is that you're somehow enhancing what you have purchased. The higher end of kickstarter that I've seen -- with meet and greets, etc. are typically understood to be ways to solicit more money to get the thing off the ground or to pay bills above and beyond the production cost of the materials that are sold -- live show costs and so on. If this is a show that is presumably selling (many) tickets, and the cost of a CD or whatever is covered by a $15 pledge, then the fluffy upper-tier items are no longer around making sure the thing gets funded -- they're now basically a transaction where you pay $500 and get to meet your favorite artists.

I like it better when I get to meet my artists by, I don't know, approaching them and saying hi. Either you're way famous and it takes $$ and privilege to get time with you, or you're doing it on your own and actually scrapping for dollars and have time to talk to people. This just seems like trying to have it both ways -- it's DIY, but if you want to chill with us, $500.

bene gesserit totally otm. and yet because it's a nice website and because it doesn't really feel like you're paying money (because you won't lose anything unless everybody else decides it's worthwhile, in which case you're vindicated, right?), people keep giving money to projects that they would normally be a lot more cautious about (imo).

you won't lose anything unless everybody else decides it's worthwhile, in which case you're vindicated, right?

some of my poorly-thought-out kickstarter pledging has proven to me that people can jump on the mob mentality for lots of things that sound kind of interesting

Marissa is very kind -- she donated a track to the tribute album for Lee Jackson I helped coordinate, and has mentioned it over time to a number of folks who have asked about her contribution, one of the best on a wonderful collection.

How much of this anti-kickstarter sentiment is actually informed by the numbers. Not trolling or anything, just curious if there are ALOT of kickstarter projects that runaway with the money and don't create the intended project. Like, people here seem to think that this is a thing, but other than Deacon thing, I haven't heard much in the negative about this kind of thing? Other examples?

reading about what the Penny Arcade comics dudes solicited money for, and how much they got, and what they offered as rewards may make your blood boil a little

haha I saw "Marissa" and thought we were talking about another person who has fun ideas about musician's compensation

Hahahah

i did too for a hot second

to be fair, amanda palmer stole that other marissa's ideas

God now I'm imagining Ms. Palmer covering "Emu."

there's not creating the intended project, then there's not coming through with the perks. the latter has happened with a few of the projects i've give money too...they're all personal friends so it's whatever, but still.

there's also asking for what is in my opinion way too much money for what you want to do, which is the case in a lot of 'help me make a record' projects that i see.

reading about what the Penny Arcade comics dudes solicited money for, and how much they got, and what they offered as rewards may make your blood boil a little

yep, didn't think i could get anymore vigorous with smdh @ kickstarter projects but oh man

Link re Penny Arcade story?

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/pennyarcade/penny-arcade-sells-out

http://yourkickstartersucks.tumblr.com/post/29501935881/penny-arcade-got-528-000-because-they-got-more

But the stupid crap that people got is what they were told they were getting, right? Basically, the money was to help them stop relying on ads on the homepage afaict. (re Penny Arcade)

somebody paid $10 grand to have lunch with two nerds and have one less ad on a nerd website.

that's not really "you got ripped off" so much as

http://photo.goodreads.com/books/1171704928l/115629.jpg

Well, and the fact it wasn't a new creative project, at all. It's the exact same project. The kickstarter was not to continue making the comic and blogging, as they were going to do that regardless. Basically, the "creative" project was to remove one ad from one page on their site. And not the page with the comic on it.

Guys I know you think Amanda Palmer is terrible and I do to and I'ma let you finish but
this is worse

oh lord pac

the penny arcade thing sucks, but i can see people giving money to it in a "i've enjoyed this for free for a long time, here's a chance to show my appreciation" way.

kinda like the current model where you enjoy a bunch of mixtapes from a rapper or producer and then buy their less-good official album because you feel guilty.

Funding for projects only.
A project has a clear goal, like making an album, a book, or a work of art. A project will eventually be completed, and something will be produced by it. A project is not open-ended. Starting a business, for example, does not qualify as a project.

Many of these Kickstarters are less about "I'll deliver you product for your dough" and more about accessibility, playing off the concept of fandom. It... well, it makes me sick.

I get that Gaiman is trying to say that you're getting what's listed, but the point of "bonuses" is that you're somehow enhancing what you have purchased. The higher end of kickstarter that I've seen -- with meet and greets, etc. are typically understood to be ways to solicit more money to get the thing off the ground or to pay bills above and beyond the production cost of the materials that are sold -- live show costs and so on. If this is a show that is presumably selling (many) tickets, and the cost of a CD or whatever is covered by a $15 pledge, then the fluffy upper-tier items are no longer around making sure the thing gets funded -- they're now basically a transaction where you pay $500 and get to meet your favorite artists.

I like it better when I get to meet my artists by, I don't know, approaching them and saying hi. Either you're way famous and it takes $$ and privilege to get time with you, or you're doing it on your own and actually scrapping for dollars and have time to talk to people. This just seems like trying to have it both ways -- it's DIY, but if you want to chill with us, $500.

― ɥɯ ︵ (°□°) (mh), Friday, 14 September 2012 21:25 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^ storming

yeah it seems like people are essentially using this as a new _income_ model rather than a new way to undertake specific projects.

which expressly violates kickstarter's own rules, so maybe somebody should start a campaign to contact them about all this?

if ppl want to give other, famouserer people, money, then i can shake my head or whatever but it seems like its their problem, not mine.

yeah it seems like people are essentially using this as a new _income_ model rather than a new way to undertake specific projects.

― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Friday, September 14, 2012 7:38 PM (17 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yes, exactly, why get investors to fund your business when you can just get a bunch of rubes to give you capital with essentially no strings attached, aside from some crappy reward that you aren't really required to pay out!? and while things like the penny arcade thing are clearly against the site's terms of service, do you really think it's in kickstarter's interest to actually enforce those terms? not likely, since they are usually the biggest income sources. and they spend exactly 0 resources vetting new projects.

also re: failed kickstarter projects, it's a thing: http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-08-21/kickstarter-s-funded-projects-see-some-stumbles

i just think that as consumers/funders we should demand a better model..i can't understand why this is so popular other than the fact that it has a slick interface.

i assume that there might be legit class action suits against people who get $25,000 and then don't provide what they were promising?

if ppl want to give other, famouserer people, money, then i can shake my head or whatever but it seems like its their problem, not mine.

― s.clover, Friday, September 14, 2012 6:56 PM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

would you say this of victims of credit card fraud and the like?

which expressly violates kickstarter's own rules, so maybe somebody should start a campaign to contact them about all this?

oh kickstarter was most definitely contacted...penny arcade has a lot of haters because of their shitty misogyny and there was an uproar about this. kickstarter does not give one single fuck about anything but their fee.

i'm not sure that giving somebody a gob of money to eat lunch with me is exactly the same as identity theft?

oh i thought you were responding to the discussion of people to raised a lot of money via kickstarter and then failed to come through with whatever was promised in a reasonable period of time.

WHO raised

i still can't believe the free food thing. there is oblivious and there is oblivious. people really bring her food before every show??? amazing. and even if it sucks she still has to eat it. so strange. and awkward! i wouldn't let my fans anywhere near me if i had fans. unless they paid at least 5 grand. and brought me food from a reputable restaurant.

I'm a paranoid type, I would worry about food being poisoned or unsanitary or whatever.

especially goth food!

here, amanda, try some of my deviled absinthe salvia eggs!

I thought goth food was just taco bell 69 cents

oh yeah, the not delivering thing is more serious. but they're pretty explicit that there are no guarantees, and that the point of the kickstarter is to give money to something you want to support first and foremost, and get something in return much less. as kickstarter projects turn into entirely other sorts of simple preorder funding models, then that's going to be a real tension which will blow up in lawsuits eventually.

but i've also seen the opposite -- kickstarters that ran into genuine supply and delivery problems with rabid people calling for some poor artisan scissors-maker's blood as a scam artist because their specially sourced magic bamboo delivery didn't work out or w/e so somebody will have to pick out a new christmas present for their cousin.

so i almost feel like "funders" are way worse than project people for the most part. except, obv. for amanda palmer and penny arcade.

oh and the paying for good musicians for the gig in new york...hahahaha! that is soooooo rude! funny, though. sorry, topeka or wherever!