amanda palmer's open poem to jonathan chait (and other crimes)

what was the scope of the project when she was only asking for $100k?

xxpost -- Given the number of ILMers posting who are performing artists one way or another, yeah, I'd say they do feel qualified for good reason.

― Ned Raggett, Thursday, September 13, 2012 4:54 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

to set the upper limit?

I defer to Owen P.'s answer just now as making the case very well on all fronts.

7,000+ high-end CD-books & thank you cards cost about $15 a package to manufacture and ship. that’s $105,000.

BS? These guys say it would cost under $8k. Maybe not 'high-end' but still, that sounds about 5x more than it should be.
https://www.unifiedmanufacturing.com/products-page/product-category/cd-jewel-cases-folders-cd-jewel-case-clear-audio-cd-24-page-booklet-replication/

i dunno, albini's statement is more charitable than "she sounds like a grifter"

I guess people respect grifters more?

owen makes fair points (idk about "grifter" but otherwise). I still really don't see the big deal about getting musicians to do voluntarily and under no false pretenses do a couple hours of work (which they consider fun) for free.

She really missed an opportunity to offer "Play onstage with this rockstar!" and sell it for $50 or something.

Geeting musicians who want to go to the show anyway.

A lot of 1099s needed if everyone at every stop got 50 bucks.

No, they don't get 50 bucks, they pay 50 bucks! I was saying she could have put that up on kickstarter, "Pledge $50 for the unique opportunity to share the stage!" Missed out on a good chunk of change.

well, that does seem pretty grifter-y

No one is actually trying to set an upper limit on how much Amanda Palmer is allowed to make...? Unless pointing out that she could have afforded to hire the professional musicians she wanted and still banked a take-home that is 1.5 times the national average salary is being interpreted as "and she should not make a penny more, ever"? I mean, isn't she selling tickets to these shows, and merchandise at them? Does she not expect to sell copies of this album to people who didn't contribute to her Kickstarter?

That's just a stupid, lazy argument that doesn't engage with the actual criticism, which is that the balance sheet displayed does not match the picture of reality AP is attempting to portray, particularly in the face of the "even if I break even, this is a success" rhetoric she wrote on her own damn Kickstarter page.

On one hand, I can dig that musicians should be paid, especially when the person doing the paying had made what some could deem a very public cash grab. This is human nature - ask any lottery winner about their experience and the first thing they list is people asking for loans. And it's also in (most of) our nature to be sympathetic to the plights of musicians who make no money and scrape by despite trying to make something we all love to share for us.

On the other hand (and this is even more relevant thanks to Wayne Coyne coming up earlier) is this a shit-ton different than when the Lips ask people in tour stops to don smelly animal costumes and act as stage props? As far as I know (and I spoke to one person who got to be a bunny or some such shit) they don't get paid, but are expected to perform in their own way.

Would people have the same problem with the Lips if Wayne just publicly raised a shit-ton of money online? Or is the addition of a kazoo or bassoon into the equation what makes it blasphemous?

These are honest questions... I am on the fence of this serious issue.

what was the scope of the project when she was only asking for 100k?

I assume that she was doing what everyone does which is "for $10 you get something that will cost me $5, for $20 you will get something which will cost me $10" and then assume that half of the target will be put into actual construction. Except she's already made the album and racked up $250k in debt?

I suppose she may have shot for a low figure because fan-based stuff like Kickstarter is exactly in her wheelhouse - if she'd asked for $500k and failed that would be a hell of a thing.

my friend has posited that maybe her sleazy cabaret mystique is not, in fact, an act and she is an actual grifter

amanda palmer has always reminded me of smug people who were told, a lot, that they were really creative and intelligent (she is, although I don't personally like like her work) and as a result winds up with a complete inability to admit she made a mistake, or is wrong, or isn't the most special apple in the bin.

On the other hand (and this is even more relevant thanks to Wayne Coyne coming up earlier) is this a shit-ton different than when the Lips ask people in tour stops to don smelly animal costumes and act as stage props?

Depends - is Wayne Coyne looking to see people's Equity cards before they put on the costumes?

Is Wayne Coyne asking people to submit artistic resumes and performance reels before he puts them into an animal costume?

She also didn't, I'm assuming, get professional musicians, she got somewhat skilled amateurs. Which is a difference. She didn't use unpaid musicians as her backing band (afaik), she just used a handful of them on a couple of tunes as a horn section. She had one rehearsal with them. She obviously did not expect the degree of polish and perfection one would get from a paid musician in a touring band. She couldn't fault them for making mistakes (which I'm sure they did).

no, but I think he dances around them and sprinkles them with confetti, which is undoubtedly on-the-job harassment if they were paid

x-p

No no, when I say "she sounds like a grifter", I mean, "she sounds like she is fudging numbers, making up expenses, factoring in personal costs and expenses into her 'production costs'". I am saying "she sounds like she is lying". "This reads like she is lying." Her numbers are off and she makes no assertions, states no facts.

Note that I am not flat-out saying "Amanda Palmer is a liar" because I am couching my words carefully to avoid any assertions, just as Amanda Palmer is careful to say "oh, these art books will cost, say, about $300 a unit".

If she were to assert "this art book will absolutely cost $300 a unit" then somebody might ask her to show her a manufacturing receipt, seeing as they are 200% more expensive than the most expensive book you'd find in any art store at retail price. Then she's be lying and the Musician's Union would come and take her piano away.

Note that I am also avoiding any "I am picking on her specifically because her music sucks" or "how much should musicians make, anyway?" debates because fuck all that.

"One year of perfoming as 'Quacky' at the county fair in junior high doesn't count."

Animal friends at Flaming Lips shows just show up, put on costumes, and dance around. Palmer is requiring these unpaid musician fans to learn the music and show up early for rehearsal. I guess that could still be exciting if you're a fan, and if you're just doing it at one stop. afaik, she's not dragging these same unpaid musicians around on the road for 3 weeks without paying them money.

(don't take the non-judgementalness of my previous post as a blessing on what she's doing. she's totally a grifter and a fucking hack.)

Well, that would cost on travel.

what the flaming lips don't want you to know is they're going to have that bathtub on stage and their shows

i wanted my brother to do a tour of the u.s. and hire homeless people to back him up in each city. because nobody would know the difference! hahaha! ah, i kill me. but i think it would have been a great tour. i did not suggest what he should pay each homeless band though. it would have been a sly commentary on underground art and poverty. hmmmm, kickstarter here i come...

So that $250,000 spent on recording the album....must have been a real kick-ass DIY studio! Power to the people, right?

the future of music iirc

so we're pretty much out of new stuff to say about this now huh

I don't have an issue w/playing for free on principal. I have certainly done it a few times, tho usually just for my friends.

However, my question is if no one agreed to take her up on her "offer", would she scrap the whole orchestral idea...or would she hire musicians? There is a conspicuous "getting something for nothing" flavor to this, which tastes extra bad coming off a huge kickstarter campaign.

x-post haha that's when the latecomers hit the thread

she is just bad imo

she is no call me maybe

captain beefheart made the magic band eat lima beans

I think mostly what people dislike about her is the fake-DIY angle. I'm with you on that (although I think a lot more "DIY" stuff is fake DIY than gets outed as being so). I just don't think this thing has much to do with the exploitation of musicians.

Has anyone brought up that the name of her accompaniment is "The Grand Theft Orchestra"?

I'm guessing she would just play with her stripped-down band, but since she had the option of adding a bunch of talented fans she went with that.

I think I actually would respect her more as an actual grifter, in that she would have in some sense earned all that kickstarter money.

just listened to this, fuckin' A is this aggravating music kickstart my balls

basically this seems like a pretty gross move but doesn't seem like that big of a deal overall, and the reaction to it is kind of gross too because if it was someone other than amanda palmer (i.e. someone with cred) doing it i doubt the response would be as venomous

I wish it was someone higher profile! Like Bono and U2, that'd be great.

Well you know n/a there are some teachers that are on strike too right now and some people describing them as whiners also

She also didn't, I'm assuming, get professional musicians, she got somewhat skilled amateurs. Which is a difference

From her own post:

http://www.amandapalmer.net/blog/20120821/

you need to know how to ACTUALLY, REALLY PLAY YOUR INSTRUMENT! lessons in fifth grade do not count, so please include in your email some proof of that (a link to you playing on a real stage would be great, or a resume will
do. just don’t LIE…you’ll be embarrassed if you show up for rehearsal and everyone’s looking at you wondering why you can’t actually play the trombone.)

If all she's looking for is "somewhat skilled amateurs", why is she asking interested people to have a performance resume or proof of yourself playing to an audience on a stage in order to do it?

Not even going into the "they're amateurs, they must have made mistakes" thing because that's not even relevant to this argument.

Well you know n/a there are some teachers that are on strike too right now and some people describing them as whiners also

― nabiscuits otm (Ówen P.), Thursday, September 13, 2012 4:40 PM (11 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i think we've hit our quota on the use of the phrase "apples and oranges" in this thread or i'd respond to this

just listened to this, fuckin' A is this aggravating music kickstart my balls
don't think i've ever written this before but irl lol

Owen P., what do you think are the biggest lies in that kickstarter run-down?

like, a "somewhat skilled amateur" could tape themselves playing in the bedroom, if she REALLY just wanted to make sure ppl had a rudimentary grasp of their instruments, but that's rather conspicuously NOT what she asked for

NO ONE asks for a performance resume from amateur musicians unless they're being asked to produce professional output.

I'm guessing she would just play with her stripped-down band, but since she had the option of adding a bunch of talented fans she went with that.

I actually disagree. I think to even have the idea you want strings and horns means you've already thought about the arrangement for the songs, and if you suddenly lose half your "band", you don't just decide to change all the arrangements, when it would be a quick, albeit more expensive solution to just get some more players. Cheap ones even, college students, etc.

That's the thing about this -- it's not like it would be *that* expensive for her to hire, say, 5 more players cheaply and bring them along. What you lose by doing that (other than a little money) is all the PR working w/new people in each city. After this tour, she'll have worked with dozens of new musicians, each of whom is apparently happy enough to play for free w/her. Maybe they do it again? Maybe they network w/their friends and tell them what a cool person AP is. (and full disclosure, I know the guys she worked with last time she was in SF, and they have helped her network w/players in other cities)