amanda palmer's open poem to jonathan chait (and other crimes)

She wouldn't be poor if she paid her workers, though.

not that i'm defending AP, but didn't the walkmen do a similar thing where they got local horn players in every town to be their horn section? can't remember if they got paid...one of my friends played trombone with them at the lollapalooza gig, i'll have to ask him.

i think albini is pointing at someone else who is not poor and whose day job is rather rarified

It's really easy to make fun of Amanda Palmer, and I do, but he called her an idiot for ... not just making a living by recording and touring? For asking for charity? For making too much money? She can be lame, but I'm not sure what's wrong with asking for money. Because she doesn't need it? She seems pretty hardcore about hobnobbing with fans and giving them their money's worth, so I don't know exactly what she did wrong to earn Albini's ire. Not that it takes much!

I mean, she's married to Neil Gaiman, who is very rich. Does that mean she shouldn't ask for money for anything?

(Btw, Jandek does pay, according to people who have played with him.)

Yeah, but are they making those big Jandek bucks?

Jandek's musicians are paid in Corwood Industries stock iirc

They're paid in blank cassettes.

Corwood stock was a risky investment until Jandek invented the Segway

Not necessarily a bad deal - have you seen the prices some blank cassette tapes go for on ebay?

xpost, obviously

I promoted a Jandek show a few years back. the musicians got paid, but by me not by him. and yes they had to agree that their names would not be on the cd.

BOB LEFSETZ WEIGHS IN, SAYS HATERS GONNA HATE

"I've seen Amanda Palmer live. If you think the additional free players are performing at Philharmonic levels, you're sorely mistaken. It's about a one time event, a happening. Hell, isn't that what we used to love about concerts? Before they were all done by rote, performed to hard drive?

I'm not saying I would make the same choice.

And I'm not telling you to do so.

But I will say Amanda Palmer is trying.

And I will say, with trying, comes mistakes. Not that this is one of them, but that's the nature of trying new things, failing.
She's willing to do this, are you?"

see you guys you all just aren't trying hard enough

She's willing to do this, are you?

who, me? who is he talking to?

"You see Ms. Palmer is running a club, a gang, she's trying to do it new school, and everybody who believes music should not be free and CDs should rule are using her as a scapegoat."

lol isn't this the opposite of trying?

I'm not saying I would make the same choice, but one thing is clear, amanda palmer is willing to do this thing she already did

and with doing things comes mistakes, not that this is one, although I wouldn't do this

Sort of like Albini antipathy, I'm usually inclined to believe the opposite of whatever that Lefsetz dude says. So I guess Palmer is ... an idiot?

fuck mitt romney, jandek and amanda palmer could really turn this country around in no time.

I think the time has come to find out what Mitt Romney thinks of Amanda Palmer's entrepreneurial spirit.

So, the defence is this?
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/376355_10151029182077859_2100976538_n.jpg

She is basically "trying" what every other band has been doing since the invention of the Internet except she is failing at it because she is greedy

"at least she's fucking trying. what the fuck have you done?"

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_xLflvamFZZg/TJLpQTnw5SI/AAAAAAAAD9U/dTE2UBvEHkc/s1600/ian.jpg

oh here's the whole thing

"Musician on musician hate. With a dose of jealousy thrown in.

In case you don't live on the Interwebs, many players are shocked that Amanda Palmer is giving them a chance to play for free. Well, not completely, there's beer and hugs and audience enjoyment too.

They believe she should pay.

Because she raised a million dollars on Kickstarter and they didn't!

Line up the most successful musicians and you've got a slew of players who absolutely despise them, because said musicians made it and they didn't. That musician performed oral sex, their daddy paid, they elbowed out a better player. God, if these people just stopped complaining and put their nose to the grindstone...

They still might not make it.

These same people, especially the non-musicians weighing in, because the Internet is all about piling on, who beg for internships in the music business.

I'm gonna make it very simple. You don't have to!

Many people would salivate at the chance to play with Ms. Palmer. Well, not many people. She's not Paul McCartney, she's certainly not Bob Dylan. But a few.

You see Ms. Palmer is running a club, a gang, she's trying to do it new school, and everybody who believes music should not be free and CDs should rule are using her as a scapegoat.

Amanda ankled her major label deal, she makes money on Twitter, she uses the new technologies to both reach people and profit and they don't like it. They could join in, but then they might fail, and they wouldn't be able to sit at home at bitch.

And these players are the same ones decrying drum machines and synthesizers and every modern innovation that cost a single musician a job. If we had these people rule, we'd truly live in an "Atlas Shrugged" world. One where there's no innovation and the masses are a step behind.

Kind of like all those people bitching Apple changed the connector. Mm... Let me see. Isn't that what killed Microsoft, the refusal to leave legacy computers in the dust? By making everything backwards-compatible, Microsoft missed out on the future.

And yes, people are beating up the iPhone 5. Claiming it's not innovative enough, kind of like BMW switching to all electric vehicles which fly, damn profitability.

But that's the public. Hating on corporations.

And hating on politicians is de rigueur.

But hating on artists?

Well, that happens too.

But when artists themselves start hating on artists you lose the plot. Artists should have solidarity. And know that the future is inevitable. You might not like it, but it's coming.

Now in retrospect, Amanda Palmer made a PR mistake. She should have seen this coming. But does that mean she shouldn't have done it?

That's when the musicians really complain. When you rest on your laurels, when you take no chances, when you give them exactly what they want.

The public doesn't know what it wants. So the greatest artists go in search of their own truth.

I've seen Amanda Palmer live. If you think the additional free players are performing at Philharmonic levels, you're sorely mistaken. It's about a one time event, a happening. Hell, isn't that what we used to love about concerts? Before they were all done by rote, performed to hard drive?

I'm not saying I would make the same choice.

And I'm not telling you to do so.

But I will say Amanda Palmer is trying.

And I will say, with trying, comes mistakes. Not that this is one of them, but that's the nature of trying new things, failing.
She's willing to do this, are you?"

lol at "big Jandek bucks"

I think Albini's point was that if she can't put on a good show and tour without needing donations -- which, a lot of the kickstarter money kind of is if it's above and beyond the "pay $5, get a cd" level or if you're getting an item worth a lot less than what you paid -- then she's not a professional to him, but an idiot. It's Albini, he's not exactly reaching for the right way to describe it and I don't think he's necessarily referring to her intellect but using "idiot" as a generic pejorative.

has anyone mentioned that there's an ilxor that (iirc) lived at Palmer's place?

i should add that every time someone uses "hater" in a piece of expository prose, my personal assessment of whatever argument they might have decreases by about 5%

AHAHAHAHAHA. What a fucking moron.

There are actually way too many idiotic things in there to go through it seriously. But that is an awful, awful defence.

It's about a one time event, a happening.

I immediately stop listening to and/or respecting the opinion of anyone who uses the term "a happening".

Oh Lefsetz now, this whole thing is like a dog whistle for the blowhards.

i don't think anyone holds it against an ilxor for once having a controversial cabaret roommate. i mentioned it on the kickstarter thread.

x-post

i mean i kinda feel bad if they are friends, but musicians making news is gonna get reactions from people here.

I immediately stop listening to and/or respecting the opinion of anyone who uses the term "a happening".

― NR’s resident heavy-metal expert (Nicole), Thursday, September 13, 2012 8:16 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Awww. I really like bandying about that term. I also call people "hepcats" sometimes. You probably hate me now.

Fancy a jazz cigarette, cat?

Palmer can clearly record and tour without asking for cash. I guess that's the issue, right? Anyway, overlooked here is that Palmer asked fans for a slightly more modest (though not nothing) $100,000 for a book, album and tour, and ended up getting over ten times that. I just read a piece recently - in Wired? - on all the problems that arise when Kickstarter campaigns raise far more than asked for. Doesn't Kickstarter have some sort of cut-off?

This is going to x-post to all hell but...

I'm really of two minds about this.

Because, as a fan, and someone who has been around fandom of the sort of obsessive fans that follow bands around on tour and actually beg for the right to sell t-shirts on tour - I think the idea of inviting fans onstage to play along with their idol is amazing, it's beautiful. Speaking as someone who, well - one of the crowning ~amazing fan moments~ of my life was the time that I got to play drums for Drugstore, pulled up out of the audience as a volunteer. And that's something I will treasure forever. So the idea of doing that with two fans, every night for a whole tour, that's fantastic, it's the kind of reward that obsessive fans will carry around with them for a lifetime. Great idea.

But the money thing... that whole thing, the comments and her reaction has been, well, bad. Because if she had turned around and said "it's not about the fucking money, it's about giving two obsessive fans the experience of a lifetime EVERY DAMN NIGHT for a whole tour!" I would have said YOU GO, GIRL. But the moment she starts whinging about $35k when she has a budget of $1.2 million, that puts her on totally the wrong foot. But it wasn't *her* that brought the money into the conversation in the first place, it sounds like a lot of butthurt session players, which, fair enough, I've been a session player, you don't have to volunteer for those jobs. But it doesn't cheapen you and your job to have someone decide to give fans the night of their life. But her poorly handled reaction changed this from "giving fans the night of their lives" to "chump change from a millionaire."

But poorly handled reactions to criticism seem to be her stock in trade. I'm hardly one to point fingers on that count, so I can certainly understand.

No, I couldn't hate you. But when aging blowhards like Lefsetz use it is the worst. xxxp

def on the same page as you, scott, just kind of weird connection that I should forget for the context of this

This is that Wired piece: http://www.wired.com/design/2012/07/st_kickstarter/

Can't you just program/ask Kickstarter to cut off at your goal?

But it doesn't cheapen you and your job to have someone decide to give fans the night of their life.

Except it absolutely does cheapen. I'm with most of your post, but I think you are 100% wrong with this line.

"it wasn't *her* that brought the money into the conversation in the first place"

Have you not seen her THIS IS THE FUTURE OF MUSIC grandstanding re: her Kickstarter campaign?

So it cheapens professional drummers when the BJM decide to let a fan play tambourine onstage for a night? Really?

― controversial cabaret roommate (Nicole),

props for this, btw, you beat me by about 25 seconds

Did I cheapen all musicians everywhere by volunteering to play drums for Drugstore, instead of asking for musicians' union pay?

So it cheapens professional drummers when the BJM decide to let a fan play tambourine onstage for a night? Really?

When you do it over the extent of your entire tour and take jobs away from working musicians, yes, it absolutely does.

You're comparing apples to oranges here.

It seems like she's doing this in addition to her regular, paid band members. If her entire band were crowdsourced, you might have an argument.