Is SPIN really circling the drain?

1) jamilah lemieux may have mischaracterized soderberg's critical stance, but i'm not too bothered by that, tbh. i don't consider her a leading brandon soderberg expert.

2) i would say the writer suggests that because BS is white and writes for a mainly rockist publication, he should be a bit more sensitive about what he's bringing to the discussion. i don't think she accuses white critics of having "misguided aesthetics" or denies their ability to catch feelings while listening to rap. it may be that distance brings perspective, but the particular perspective that white critics bring to hip hop is not always going to be welcome, especially when the line between "talking about music" and "talking about people's lives and culture" gets blurry.

3) okay sure. seems like a very minor quibble.

4) same. i don't like the song, so i don't care about lemieux's defense of it, and i basically agree with her about the social consequences of certain pop messages.

i am glad to have finally learned that the white media is more important to hip-hop discourse than black media, so thanks for that

what does the blah media have to say about hip-hop?

♫ mansplain yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds ♫

― flopson, Monday, August 27, 2012 3:07 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

♫ have no fear of atomic energy, cause none of them can slut-shame time ♫

the pain in Spin falls mainly from mansplain

keep misreading that as manscaping, thinking Details needs to get on this trend of pubic hair trimming in the hip hop community

i am glad to have finally learned that the white media is more important to hip-hop discourse than black media, so thanks for that

From where I sit, the actual writing about hip-hop being done in hip-hop magazines is having little or no impact on the larger musical culture, whereas the writing about hip-hop being done in magazines like Rolling Stone or Spin, or on Pitchfork, is having a disproportionately large impact on the larger musical culture. Am I wrong about that?

Sure Brandon misjudged the dynamics, but I still think the "how dare he" rhetoric is really what drives the Lemieux Ebony piece. And while there's no doubt that the ideology of popular culture tends to reach that culture's audience, there's a sort of passive mimeticism involved in both Lupe's video and Lemieux's text that I don't think you can separate that easily.

Huh. Love Aerial, but not a particular fan of KotM. It would be my 8th or 9th favorite track, probably.

― something of an astrological coup (tipsy mothra), Monday, August 27, 2012 12:30 PM (49 minutes ago)

i'd describe it differently.

the fact that members of the dominant (white) culture write the dominant version of the narrative doesn't surprise me, no. but "important" is subjective.

good point

lol, duh.

that was meant to respond to 訳侮辱's "Am I wrong about that?"

but "king of the mountain" is great

fwiw back in the day (ie when magazines actually had an impact on things) the Source was infinitely more important to hip hop culture than fucking Rolling Stone

From where I sit, the actual writing about hip-hop being done in hip-hop magazines is having little or no impact on the larger musical culture, whereas the writing about hip-hop being done in magazines like Rolling Stone or Spin, or on Pitchfork, is having a disproportionately large impact on the larger musical culture. Am I wrong about that?

― 誤訳侮辱, Monday, August 27, 2012 3:29 PM (12 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yes & no in that places like Complex which seem like a meeting ground between the two have a pretty big impact.

You seen those lists?

a lot of writers at those magazines seem to follow critical decisions made at pfork stereogum etc. which seems weird to me. that sales used to drive coverage more, where now its like this brain trust of writers/editors who all know action bronson, big krit and das racist are but have no clue about more popular regional rappers unless those of us outside that world pierce through. there's an internet-centered myopia. and yeah, it's def driven by coverage from places that are traditionally considered outside hip hop

this is a pretty complex thing, though; there's no critical dialogue at mainstream rap mags, so writers who would have been drawn to those mags in an earlier time are more likely to end up writing for a place where thoughtful criticism has a place. what's funny abt the keef scenario is it seems like for NY mag people that was the tipping point of not letting hipsters dictate coverage, when ironically he's the closest to a populist rap star that has also been internet 'hot' in some time imo.

there's no critical dialogue at mainstream rap mags

this is incorrect btw, i should say that its presence is negligible though. For a long time in the 2000s, pitchfork and allmusic were the only places doing regular album reviews. Everyone else thought the internet meant people no longer cared, which was an absurd miscalculation. then NPR got into it. more recently you have Spin & MTV HIve & places like that celebrating longform. But it's a part of a much bigger puzzle than "white media" vs "black media" or "mainstream" vs "hip hop"

this is a pretty complex thing, though; there's no critical dialogue at mainstream rap mags, so writers who would have been drawn to those mags in an earlier time are more likely to end up writing for a place where thoughtful criticism has a place.

Right. My question is, why is that critical dialogue absent?

xp times 2: gonna regret even trying here, but you mean moreso than like ASAP

the death of andy rooney?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCwzcrG7EsM xp

xp times 2: gonna regret even trying here, but you mean moreso than like ASAP

― This cad needs a cordial introduction to Eugene of Oxbow. (forksclovetofu), Monday, August 27, 2012 3:51 PM (15 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yes. outside of new york and maybe LA asap is not getting radio play like that

keef is getting radio play in NY and maybe LA?

like seriously, i have no idea

i have no idea, but he is getting it in atlanta

my point was i wouldn't think of asap as a populist rap star. his lane is def more internet/tumblr/art/high fashion type movement.

i'm getting controversial:

https://twitter.com/skotrok

Keef just started to peak higher than A$AP on national airplay charts like 2 weeks ago, before that i would've been hard pressed to figure out why they'd be considered in different lanes

yeah me too. sounds like a question of perspective.

Keef just started to peak higher than A$AP on national airplay charts like 2 weeks ago, before that i would've been hard pressed to figure out why they'd be considered in different lanes

― some dude, Monday, August 27, 2012 4:25 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

because one built his support off regional buzz & the other one didn't.

i think the way the industry has treated each speaks for itself. you don't see yo gotti & jeezy clambering to collaborate w/ asap. asap's music doesn't sound much like current populist street rap. it doesn't appeal to the same audience. etc

i mean, its all a matter of degree of course, but i think its pretty obvious that keef & them are closer to 'populist' than the guy who's doing all the fashion covers

eh guy from harlem seemed to have some kind of grassroots following among the dipset-starved locals, just being the city that it was put him among different people. it's not like keef didn't jump the line from 'regional phenomenon' to 'major label bidding war' over the space of a few weeks too. but this is super tangential, i apologize for nitpicking this irrelevant point.

fwiw keef has zero buzz among non-pitchfork-reading rap fans on the east coast afaict, he's just a guy who does the hook on a kanye record to a lot of people

eh guy from harlem seemed to have some kind of grassroots following among the dipset-starved locals, just being the city that it was put him among different people. it's not like keef didn't jump the line from 'regional phenomenon' to 'major label bidding war' over the space of a few weeks too. but this is super tangential, i apologize for nitpicking this irrelevant point.

― some dude, Monday, August 27, 2012 4:43 PM (5 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i've never heard anything of the kind re: ASAP's buzz in harlem. i'm pretty sure that it rose at the same time as his media profile. there's a qualitative difference, i think, between an artist who's audience-tested & one who people are talking about because media has talked about him. i'm not saying one is better than the other (i certainly like Tree more than I like 2 Chainz), just observing that I think there's a fundamental difference between these 2 acts. i mean, keef's biggest video is already about to surpass ASAP's biggest in views even though the latter has seven months lead time.

fwiw keef has zero buzz among non-pitchfork-reading rap fans on the east coast afaict, he's just a guy who does the hook on a kanye record to a lot of people

― some dude, Monday, August 27, 2012 4:45 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

according to brainwasher this isn't the case, but i wouldn't know personally, obv

haha well clearly i'm going off of preview of the matrix 12's "A$AP IS AN ARMY" hype posts (xpost)

lol

the idea of non-rap publications driving rap discourse is fairly new and mostly has to do w/ the flip of power to the internet. i don't think anything in rock music ever resonated as clearly as rappers rapping about wanting '5 mics' or being 'unsigned hype', and you still sometimes hear those terms trickling into the vernacular. was there any rock band that sung about getting an A- in the consumer's guide?

let's also not forget that music magazines as a whole really aren't doing criticism anymore. vibe, xxl & the source don't have critical discourse, but rolling stone, SPIN and the fader have just as little at least if you're talking the actual in-print magazines. i think when you look at websites that have in the last ~8 years have begun to drive taste/discussion more than mags, pitchfork is the one major outlier that has really fostered criticism over everything. stereogum has started to lean more towards criticism in the last year or so, and SPIN in its newest incarnation has begun to find a critical voice again. complex is the same way, and still isn't very critical. but steregum used to be just an mp3 blog. there's wasn't much difference between it and nah right. there isn't much difference between rap radar and gorilla vs bear. the tastemaking processes were often the same -- drake blew up through nah right and other blogs the same way plenty of indie rock acts have.

there's certainly more of a hivemind and publications covering their bases (vibe putting azealia banks and diplo on their cover) now that the game is so cutthroat, but the lack of critical discourse in traditional rap arenas is a new phenomenon, and i'd like to think that's it mostly a blip until the the media world shakes itself out.

otm

"was there any rock band that sung about getting an A- in the consumer's guide?"

http://www.doctorhook.com/images/tn_rollingstonecover.jpg

and Sonic Youth sang about getting C's and D's from Christgau.

brit bands loved to moan about nme and melody maker and critics but nobody really listened to them.

this is so much conversation in a glass jar
ASAP has a legit harlem fanbase and that's where he started and got his interest
he happens to live in a media heavy town; it's easy for him to get to shoots and get paid and fuck women because of it
your possessive nature with this stuff really does confound me

whereas Americans want to be loved by NME:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pf-ONpLXzGs

brit bands loved to moan about nme and melody maker and critics but nobody really listened to them.

― scott seward, Monday, August 27, 2012 6:10 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

truth -- if anything the relationship b/w criticism and artists in rap is as close as it was in rock

maybe that's what's behind the rise of the term "hater" -- tastemaking is more faceless now, so rappers just have to call out the big strawman

how am i being 'possessive'? i'm describing how i see the dynamics of the situation. you seem to disagree, but i don't really believe that forks is keeping his ear to the harlem mixtape trade, sorry

forks is out in these streets every day

is there still a mixtape trade in most cities? i still know tons of cats in Baltimore who sell CDs out of their cars and don't even upload their shit to datpiff but i kind of assume they're just out of touch/set in their ways.

the cover of the ASAP mob album is a gif, if that tells you precisely where they're aiming

the gif and the curse