Is SPIN really circling the drain?

They're pretty difficult things to talk about, yeah. But the moment this becomes about whether white writers have the right to criticize hip hop because ultimately they're outsiders to "the culture" I believe we're on dangerous ground. Not that white writers don't have to think carefully about how they go about such things, but there's a line there I think. And when that particular argument is being made, we're all in trouble.

what's not a good look: a clusterfuck consisting of a song by a man called out by another man with supporting viewpoints from other men when the subject is women

― lex pretend, Saturday, August 25, 2012 3:53 AM (3 hours ago) Bookmark

aren't you part of the problem by jumping in?

jumping in by posting a substantive dissection of the song written by a woman? o_0

eh i didn't know the gender of the person who wrote the thing you linked

maybe you should stand outside and sign more women up for ilx? "hello, madam, i iz teh lex, may i interest you in a lupe fiasco spin magazine rock crit bitch beef?" people just talking in here. you have every right to picket though. don't get me wrong. just don't disrupt traffic if you don't have a marching permit.

x-post

anyone with half a functioning brain should feel great about calling out this song.

i was referring more to deej posting links to dudes tweeting rather than this actual conversation but yknow feel free to continue dismissing the idea that it's one that shouldn't be men-only

oh okay see i totally didn't get that! thank you for clarifying. thought you were just talking about everyone here. i competely ignore tweet links.

'deconstruction' in the derridean sense is an ongoing process always already at the heart of all systems; jay-z cant 'deconstruct' the word bitch; he can reveal the tensions and instabilities w/in rap's construction of gender; not sure its fair to say thats what hes doing; possibly preferable synonyms might be 'unpack' or 'interrogate' or even just 'explore'

anyway i thought 1 of the kind of weird things abt soderberg's piece is that it wouldve taken him like 10 minutes to call up a couple gender studies/af-am studies/academic rap experts to make his point or similar points for him, probably better and more articulately, or maybe more crucially to help him hone his 'attack' such as it is, and help stave of criticisms of cultural arrogance or whatever.

well it wasn't entirely NOT to do with this thread though i wouldn't have said anything if someone hadn't thought "what this thread full of dudes needs is ANOTHER DUDE PERSPECTIVE"

lex otm

I don't think anyone is saying that it should be men only. There are certainly women contributing on both sides on twitter.

anyway i thought 1 of the kind of weird things abt soderberg's piece is that it wouldve taken him like 10 minutes to call up a couple gender studies/af-am studies/academic rap experts to make his point or similar points for him, probably better and more articulately, or maybe more crucially to help him hone his 'attack' such as it is, and help stave of criticisms of cultural arrogance or whatever.

well here we get into Modern Journalism. blogging as mere adjunct to a publication's main stories that no one thinks to treat as seriously or take as much time over as a properly researched news feature

possibly preferable synonyms might be 'unpack' or 'interrogate' or even just 'explore'

exactly - I mean, I'm just being a dick, I think we've probably lost the battle over use of the word "deconstruction" in general discourse, but it doesn't mean "to talk about what a word means" and any writer who uses it that way should be 1) edited before he makes it to print or 2) clowned if 1) doesn't happen

I'm also very glad that BS didn't try to call in the academics as witnesses. Half a brain and all that.

the irony here is that the problem with the song, that it's a well intended look at a sensitive topic but the words could've been chosen much more carefully, is also the problem w/ the blog post

In a way, yes. But in another way no. The olympic perspective of Lupus is more troubling than BS's more specific attack.

the irony here is that the problem with the song, that it's a well intended look at a sensitive topic but the words could've been chosen much more carefully, is also the problem w/ the blog post

yeah. but the post sorta seemed to think it could go in on "backpack" hiphop as an easy target - there's something about it that seems really dismissive in a presumptuous way, when, if you're actually trying to engage a text, you have to opt out of AND PLUS THIS STYLE IS DUMB!!1! criticism. It's either/or. Take your lazy "backpackers are lame!" zing shots, or engage the substance of the track as hard as you want, but when you try to package these approaches together (potshotting at the outset with "Before we get started, note that you won't read any reference to the music or even style of rapping here, because it is clear that Lupe is mining the moronic 'lyrics over everything' attitude, reducing rap to a game of preaching to the converted")it's going to be hard to take you seriously: you are dismissing an aesthetic stance without really defending your position, so you're off on a very bad foot

yeah i wasn't saying that was the post's ONLY problem

oh no I know I was just going from there, I didn't mean "yeah but you missed this" or anything

I have an academic friend who tried to unpack backpack hiphop. Bitch laid out all its contents - and discontents - on the ground in lieu of the oral part of her dissertation. (She prefers to be referred to as "bitch", by the way.) There was a lot in there, a lot to unpack. It was pretty tight, so she splintered her nails getting that stuff out in the open. But all in a good cause: unpacking. She found:

* The worn toothbrush of liberalism, which transmits to your gums the gingivitis of complacency.

* Three dead clouds.

* Sixteen human rights of unknown provenance.

* The college radio beermat of embarrassed social privilege.

* The off-white underwear of white self-doubt.

* A realistic Lorcin Engineering .380 semiautomatic which turned out to be a water pistol containing the semen of creativity.

I call her oral feat - which won her first class honors - "bitchsplainin'".

aero on the money. and he explains my problem with the spin thing perfectly.

ib cht

I just deconstructed the b-word for y'all

yr welcome

"Moronic" was definitely the wrong word in this context. There is, however, something about the conjunction of "back to basics hip hop" and "back to basics values" (the "lady" thing, "correcting" all the youth, not merely in society but also in hip hop)) combined with the focus on the rapper-as-prophet/voice of reason role that Lupe takes on here that provokes me to no end. So, again, while moronic was the wrong word to use, I can at least understand why he wanted to use it.

But the moment this becomes about whether white writers have the right to criticize hip hop because ultimately they're outsiders to "the culture" I believe we're on dangerous ground. Not that white writers don't have to think carefully about how they go about such things, but there's a line there I think. And when that particular argument is being made, we're all in trouble.

― insane in my mansplain (longneck), Saturday, August 25, 2012 4:23 AM (5 hours ago)

yeah, that's a fair point. this particular song and brandon's criticisms of it are something of a special case, though, because both lupe and brandon are criticizing not just hip hop, but language and attitudes in a specific culture - a culture that's larger than but linked with hip hop. it's not that anyone doesn't have the right to address this, but we should know that it's very sensitive territory. brandon doesn't seem to have approached with this in mind.

well it wasn't entirely NOT to do with this thread though i wouldn't have said anything if someone hadn't thought "what this thread full of dudes needs is ANOTHER DUDE PERSPECTIVE"

― lex pretend, Saturday, August 25, 2012 5:40 AM (3 hours ago)

well, it's all i can offer. even if i repost stuff written by others, i'm filtering it though my perspective. i am trying to be mindful and to speak only for myself.

nah i think that's one of the more facepalm parts of the song

sure, but then calling women "females" is just as cringeworthy as trying to sort them into ladies and bitches.

well maybe not just as...

No, every bit as. I loathe the use of the term "female" to refer to human beings. Have never understood why it gained currency, or why women put up with it.

yeah me too. I have some relatives that talk that way as like a military / cop thing and it's really creepy.

the words men use to describe women often seem to become popular because they're denigratory and gross, not in spite of it

the subject of the song isn't limited simply to "women", though. we could also say that the subject is language and culture, and race is unavoidably a part of that.

Arguing that a white person can't criticize the song's sexist attitudes because of race and culture is kind of like saying that outsiders shouldn't criticize the way that muslim fundamentalists treat women. Saying that it's part of the culture isn't a good defense.

yeah, but i'm not saying that anyone can't criticize anything. i'm saying that it's wise to be careful and respectful when criticizing certain things. some people are somewhat proprietary about what they consider theirs, often with good reason. there is no one to whom this advice applies more than white men.

well it wasn't entirely NOT to do with this thread though i wouldn't have said anything if someone hadn't thought "what this thread full of dudes needs is ANOTHER DUDE PERSPECTIVE"

― lex pretend, Saturday, August 25, 2012 7:40 AM (7 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lex otm

― steven fucking tyler (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Saturday, August 25, 2012 7:40 AM (7 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

uhh no he's not. My link was about a white male writing presumptuously about a conversation involving african americans. Kitwana was in a dialogue with & agreeing with women on twitter who were critical of Lupe, and was himself critical of Lupe's approach; but he made that tweet in respect to what they saw as Brandon's "cultural arrogance." By arguing that as a man he shouldn't way in you guys are avoiding the fact that Lupe's song is as much about race as it is gender

^^^

Lex's argument is positing that this is JUST a gender issue

and i mean "weigh in" not way in, obv

But the moment this becomes about whether white writers have the right to criticize hip hop because ultimately they're outsiders to "the culture" I believe we're on dangerous ground. Not that white writers don't have to think carefully about how they go about such things, but there's a line there I think. And when that particular argument is being made, we're all in trouble.

― insane in my mansplain (longneck), Saturday, August 25, 2012 4:23 AM (5 hours ago)

yeah, that's a fair point. this particular song and brandon's criticisms of it are something of a special case, though, because both lupe and brandon are criticizing not just hip hop, but language and attitudes in a specific culture - a culture that's larger than but linked with hip hop. it's not that anyone doesn't have the right to address this, but we should know that it's very sensitive territory. brandon doesn't seem to have approached with this in mind.

― i know your nuts hurt! who's laughing? (contenderizer), Saturday, August 25, 2012 11:40 AM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i kind of agree with this but you don't go far enough. As a critic there are times you HAVE to be strident & forceful. I think this comes down to less being sensitive & feeling like you're walking on thin ice all the time, than writing as precisely as possible, being able to back up what you say (these are basics for all writers), and most importantly, being very aware of the dynamics of the conflict you're about to embark on. Just as in the real world, you don't overcompensate by stammering & acting awkward & giving up your critical judgements or principles just because you are talking to a nonwhite person, but you also don't bombard them with condescension

lol @ the lessons for white ppl nature of that para. but it all comes down to 'be a decent person' end of day rlly

deejsplaining

being very aware of the dynamics of the conflict you're about to embark on.

this was horribly worded but i just slept 14 hrs & have been fighting off the flu so forgive me

deejsplaining

― jjjdoom (Whiney G. Weingarten), Saturday, August 25, 2012 3:56 PM (46 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

#BoycottILM

I think this comes down to less being sensitive & feeling like you're walking on thin ice all the time, than writing as precisely as possible, being able to back up what you say (these are basics for all writers), and most importantly, being very aware of the dynamics of the conflict you're about to embark on. Just as in the real world, you don't overcompensate by stammering & acting awkward & giving up your critical judgements or principles just because you are talking to a nonwhite person, but you also don't bombard them with condescension

lol @ "deejsplaining", but yeah, that's a good way to put it

I mean, it really should apply to life in general, whatever your situation

Lex's argument is positing that this is JUST a gender issue

it's gender & it's race & you're a white male explaining the terms of the debate about gender & race to people. lex is otm that what neither this thread nor any other thread needs is white males explaining the ins & outs of gender & race

well, except that as a white male, i find this kind of discussion personally useful. i'm not trying to set the terms for anyone else.

don't think deej is either

contenderizer is white?

don't think deej is either

then the surrogate he sent to the bar with me was a ruse...damn you deej you win again

i mean that deej is speaking mostly about etiquette for white guys weighing in on stuff like this, which seems appropriate