The Pitchfork People's List - top albums 1996-2012

I do think that the way that Radiohead approach their fans and fandom is with the idea of ~creating obsession~ - they are one of those bands that have really gone in with the whole thing of creating a total world and an immersive experience of total-art.

But then, so has someone like Bjork and I don't see her getting the same kind of blanket approval on P4k? (Though she certainly has her obsessed slathering fans, they don't make the same inroads into SWM world that RH do.)

Germany's distinction index is interesting

7.13%Pantha du Prince This Bliss
5.5% Herbert Bodily Functions
4.86%Michael Mayer Immer
4.69%Pantha du Prince Black Noise
4.6% Gonjasufi A Sufi and a Killer
4.54%Isis Panopticon
4.45%Saturday Looks Good to Me All Your Summer Songs
4.29%Converge You Fail Me
4.03%Ellen Allien Berlinette
4.03%John Frusciante Shadows Collide with People
3.99%Africa Hitech 93 Million Miles
3.99%Do Make Say Think You, You're a History in Rust
3.98%The Notwist Neon Golden
3.81%Ricardo Villalobos Alcachofa
3.74%Isolée We Are Monster
3.71%The Appleseed Cast Low Level Owl Vol. I & II
3.68%Erlend Øye DJ Kicks
3.62%Pantha du Prince This Bliss

hmmm... I think if anything Bjork is an exception in that she does get a lot of love from the middle-high brow crowd in general. It's difficult for anyone to compete with Radiohead in this field though.

Owen I think that is a fucking genius observation

Also, I'm not sure that Mariah Carey's hegemonic approval wasn't created in the same way?

Bjork did have two albums on that list, commonly regarded as her best albums from the time period covered by the poll; odds are that if the poll had gone back to 1990, you'd have seen a Sugarcubes album and Debut and Post as well

I'd probably be too long and messy, but I'd really like to see a list of all albums that got #1 rankings on individual lists.

Pantha du Prince bookending up there

But Bjork doesn't get anywhere near the cross-field domination that Radiohead does, even though she plays very similar games. People have the idea that she's canonical and that it's good to list her, but not to put her in the number one slot. That thing where a woman can be good or appreciated, but she cannot have the top spot.

And Bjork didn't have that same reinvention as Radiohead, did she? I was never much of a listener.

Um, are you kidding? I can't even count the reinventions that Bjork has had.

She's a few years down the line from Radiohead though.

As in: I'd say she's not picking up 'new' fans, but satisfying her long-term appreciators more.

(And I'm not even a massive Bjork fan, I'm just grasping at people who should have the culture domination that Radiohead have - and don't. Can I bring up Madonna? Probably not, but hell, why not? I'd put Madonna at the top of the list of "most effective pop stars of the past 40 years" but I think her achievements are diminished because she's become so familiar we don't even see her)

Yeah, reinv 1: Leave rock band to do solo album.

Which is what Thom did, from "Bends" to "OK", different in that he didn't leave his band to do it..

(xpost)

Yeah, becoming 'part of the fabric' is what happens more now, tracks aren't big hit singles but that's OK, the albums bed in.

Well, Bjork is actually The Best example of enthralling your fans beyond any reasonable appreciation of what is strictly 'her music'. Count me among the enthralled, btw.

I mentioned a publicity strategy of isolation + cult-creation b/c that was the trend I felt was common between many of the artists on this list.

Thank you DJP

No Radiohead, Bjork or Madonna on my list, but I'd rank OK Computer, Homogenic, Ray of Light, Kid A and Music as all about equal, A- grade records, fwiw.

It's totally true that the air of "withholding access" is a key factor to these bands doing well, but

That people are debating this list as if it is something that says anything about Pitchfork, white people, men, Converse-- not to even mention, say, the actual quality of the music contained on any of these records-- this only indicates to me that many music listeners are looking for a fixation, not actual music.

I don't even know what's being said here.

That people are debating this list as if it says anything about the actual quality of the music only indicates to me that many listeners aren't looking for actual music?

It was looking at these lists that made me realise : I would hate to have to make a list, ranking them, positioning them, etc.

You can, but "I'm Out"

what's being said is that there is an overwhelming desire, when confronted with a list of music, to talk about everything about it EXCEPT the music

xxxposts Bjork had the reinvention I'd say. Definitely the equal amount of "art" (maybe more) compared to Radiohead. I'd say her album trajectory is also very similar in that the last several releases have had great moments but a few clunky experiments mixed in which manage to pull themselves above the parapet all the same through sheer conviction and execution. That said I haven't heard maybe the last two records by her. Radiohead probably have a few more hits (i.e. songs that most people could sing if you gave them the title), most people know Creep, Fake Plastic Trees, High & Dry, No Surprises, although these dwindle as their career goes on, but still that "I know that band because Jamie Cullum covered a song" factor exists among the Mondeo driving generation. With Bjork people know It's Oh So Quiet, but something like Bachelorette or The Hunter are less instantly-recollectable.

Yeah, I get that Owen, and it's a good point as to "why Radiohead", but I just feel like there really is something more to it, because it still does not explain why the list is 90% white and male because apparently those techniques do not reach Pitchfork voters when the people employing them are not white males.

Not fighting with you, BTW, you have really given me a think. It's a good perspective, and something I've argued with Radiohead fans before (their best artform is worldmaking, not peerless music) but it's not the whole story to what people are objecting to in that list.

Mmm, I'd say "Human Behav", "Venus as", "army of", "Big Time Sens", "Quiet", without looking up the list.

They get radioplay even now, am I right?

DJP, except it's directly preceded by the implication that only hegemony going on here is good PR?

xxxxp I'm on a phone

The absence of Mariah Carey on this list only further proves my point. Mariah aims for Grammys, sales, hit singles, hit videos, shattered records, and she has them, all of them. Why no love on a Pitchfork list? Because she's in People magazine, she's dating Nick Cannon, etc. I know the names of her kids; I don't even know who in Radiohead have kids (and I don't care, don't tell me). Sure, there's a cult of Mariah, gays like me who own Glitter on DVD, but it's not marketed with the same level of "inaccessibility", of "otherness". Thus, she doesn't inspire the same devotion in her fans.

Look, I'm not trying to draw any lines here and say "THIS IS WHY ROBYN IS POPULAR"-- I think Robyn got lots of votes because Robyn is the jam--

When I fell in love with OK Computer, RH were that Creep band who had an okay second album and in my experience, people didn't perceive them as having much of a mythos at all (it grew after that of course, but it wasn't present when the album was released). And they did a ton of interviews and were pretty much in inescapable here in Latin America, particularly due to the influence of MTV Latino. But I fell in love with the music, and I'm kind of wary of pseudo-psychological explanations for that love when none are particularly necessary. And my story isn't particularly unique. I just don't think that their myth or inaccessibility has much to do with why I gravitated towards them immediately, because it just wasn't there initially.

The absence of Mariah Carey on this list only further proves my point. Mariah aims for Grammys, sales, hit singles, hit videos, shattered records, and she has them, all of them. Why no love on a Pitchfork list? Because she's in People magazine, she's dating Nick Cannon, etc. I know the names of her kids; I don't even know who in Radiohead have kids (and I don't care, don't tell me). Sure, there's a cult of Mariah, gays like me who own Glitter on DVD, but it's not marketed with the same level of "inaccessibility", of "otherness".

So explain Kanye.

@ croupier

That people are debating this list as if it is something that says anything about Pitchfork, white people, men, Converse-- not to even mention, say, the actual quality of the music contained on any of these records-- this only indicates to me that many music listeners are looking for a fixation, not actual music.

Yeah I revised a clause and the sentence made less sense. I was initially trying to say that this list was a massive victory for these bands' publicists and their policies, and that the fallout debates were deflecting the focus away from the reality that "fans of band X are too passionate for their own good". I don't actually 100% believe that so I changed it-- the connection was a stretch.

I revised to say that "fans of band X are more interested in engaging in debate, worshipping, lolgiffing and fanfic-ing re: band X (that is, fixating) than they are in forming an objective opinion about 'the best music of the last 15 years'"

Says you.

I totally agree that cultivating mystique is a major factor, but the idea that the only thing that links these groups is mystique and that the list doesn't say anything about "Pitchfork, white people, men, Converse-- not to even mention, say, the actual quality of the music contained on any of these records" is absurd.

So explain Kanye.

I can't comment on Kanye's publicity scheme because I'm not familiar with its tack, but whatever it is, it seems to be really fucking working pretty fucking amazingly as I've met as many stultified Kanye stans over the last couple of years as I ever have Radiohead stans. Actual conversation: "I'm going to Coachella next week!" Really, who are you going to see? "Kanye West!" Oh yeah? Who else is playing? "Who the fuck cares?" Oh really? The best part about Coachella is just walking round and being surprised by random Bauhaus reunions or w/e... "Yeah, but it's Kanye West. I've seen him seven times!" (This was a paid music writer, too.)

Did anyone talk about liking The Girls because of their music or because the guy was born into a cult then was a gutter punk. Because he couldn't sing, ripped off melodies, lots of boring songs, boring progressions. Bon Iver sounds better to me but people talked about him because he was a sad alone guy in a cabin and got his song lyrics from golden plates he found in the woods or something.

Kanye is a legendary oversharer and currently dating Kim Kardashian - the guy has great PR but he is no less of an attention-seeking, ambitious gossip-and-glamorhound than Mariah Carey.

@ croup

I'm not saying it's just "mystique", it's more zeitgeist. Records that are looking to catch that moment and inspire a mass of people to a level devotion beyond what a single record typically would inspire.

this just in: straight white males like ridiculous black dudes

(level OF devotion)

lol DJP

xpost yes and if you look at who the "mass of people" are and aren't and who the artists rewarded are and aren't, you might notice that there are some similarities and connections beyond good publicity.

I mean, even if I find him more supportable as an artist, I'm not going to deny at all that a lot of what is fueling Kanye fandom is exactly what fueled R. Kelly fandom circa "Trapped in the Closet"

this just in: straight white males like ridiculous black dudes

― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Thursday, August 23, 2012 11:12 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

that's why you my dawg (fist bump)

hahaha

kanye's also the patron saint of all the emo rap/r&b about being a young man with serious fucking alcohol and women problems that makes up the distinction index list for teenagers on the poll

i agree there's a "crazy dude" element but also i think a bit more identification going on (just look at the reviews) than with r. kelly

yeah I think Kanye is at least seen as smart but crazy in a megalomaniacal way, whereas R. Kelly is just seen as absurd (and often not given credit for deliberately playing into the absurdity).

also this is a poll of collegiate dudes and kanye is a rapper who named his albums College Dropout, Late Registration and Graduation before moving on to the topic of being rich and obsessed with women.

So why does R.Kelly or Kanye get rated by SWM for being ~crazy dudes~ but when it's Erykah Badu or Lauren Hill doing that shit, it's ~this just in, lady is OMG batshit crazy~ and does not help them in the same way?

Are we now talking about myth-making rather than music-making? Which works into adoelscent projections of self-I'd-Like-to-be; Arcade Fire are all about intense teenage emotions and love and death and stuff; Radiohead are all about alienated experimentation, band-as-gang-in-nuclear-bunker; fuck knows what The National are all about but presumably they have some kidn of mythos. NMH also about intense emotions and passion etc etc; i.e. ideas beyond the actual music that people latch onto as much as the music, and which carries them through said narrative (or into said world) of band (or artist). Is it harder to do that as a solo artist? As a woman? Do audiences other than white boys want that kind of mythos beyond music? Probably, but do they culturally find it elsewhere?

These are half-formed thoughts from behind a window of intense personal stress, so don't take too seriously.

Kanye has the aspirational thing going on for SWMs, as da croupier just beautifully illustrated. Drop out of college! End up rich motherfucker!

tbh i don't think r. kelly is rated higher than Erykah Badu and Lauryn Hill album-wise, but that those mystique hoarders failed to make the list does underscore that ZEITGEIST isn't the whole of the law here.

I'm pretty sure people rate r Kelly as a lunatic who pisses on high school freshmen chicks for his kicks more than a serious artist

anyway

Some of you may have picked up on a cynicism toward Radiohead fandom on this thread and I assure you it is not my intention to accuse anybody of being shitty music listeners

I for one have been through Tori and Bjork fandom and come out the other side and I intend no disrespect, and fuck me if I'm not still there with Bowie

But I am saying that all of these bands in the top 20 have deliberately sought to release "zeitgeist defining records" that capture and enslave all of your eyeballs

And it seems that outside of this safe haven of a message board, they have succeeded

And if you want to say that these records' success a symptom of a blog or a gender or a race, you are playing into their hands and are still enslaved

ime irl as opposed to in the realm of hardcore music lovers (but even there too maybe)