The Pitchfork People's List - top albums 1996-2012

haha ya that is such bs

his number one is the biggest pop star of today. How is that non-standard? Almost all of his picks are massive sellers and/or already have plenty of critical acclaim. How is that non-standard?

dont know why popular & non-standard are mutually exclusive also imo you kind of sound like a teenager rn

It's non-standard because most of the albums don't have pictures.

― Evan, Monday, August 20, 2012 8:56 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

A majority of the albums do have pictures. I counted. Because I am anal.

Basically, to sum all this up, my list is good and yours is bad.

Tbh this is pretty much what I'm thinking.

― emil.y, Monday, August 20, 2012 4:02 PM (4 minutes ago)

Ha I was joking so I didn't bother counting.
I do honestly think that the gut reaction to lists with less pictures is that it is non-standard since many lists are just obvious Best New Music nobility and/or Urban Outfitters top sellers.

And just to make sure we understand no picture means not in the database so I'm clear we're on the same page.

I think Jonathan's list without the context of the post he wrote about it does it a disservice. It's also the culmination, in a way, of his war on the album format.

i'm glad at least someone round here isn't too much of a politically correct hipster to vote for the definitive album of the era, play

WLTM someone, anyone, without any fucking turn of the century indie on their lists

― lex pretend, Monday, August 20, 2012 9:06 PM

none on mine (except i have no list)

Xpost No I don't agree that it's bullshit. I eschew 90% of white guitar music I hear. Finding music that relates to one's personal experiences is really really tough no matter who you are. Whether one wants to listen to music that relates to you personally is another matter.

also, we can talk about these theoretical genres that have no or very little female involvement but what makes me suspicious is when i see lists skewed towards genres where there IS a lot of female involvement - that includes indie and pop and dance and rap and in fact almost every genre that western popular music fans listen to - but SOMEHOW all those female artists are just not considered as good as the male ones.

jumping off tim's earlier point about how taste values are passed down to us, i think a great deal of this is because in the wider discourse very very few of those female artists are accorded the kind of respect that their male equivalents get - even when they establish themselves as a Big Deal they're more often considered "divisive" because they kinda get hated on more. or because the distinctive thing they do doesn't jive with boys' club rules - often because they're not "serious" enough, or don't make the right kind of jokes, or are too "shrill" or "hysterical" or all those other adjectives that are routinely applied to women but not men.

dont know why popular & non-standard are mutually exclusive

Because 'non-standard' means 'deviating from the norm', and 'popular' implies 'the norm'. Hence why I'm discussing the fact that maybe this is a 'non-standard list' for straight white indie-rock dudes but it isn't non-standard outside that very small pool. And in fact, in the 21st century most straight white indie-rock dudes have followed the trend towards pop music as the go-to hip cultural signifier, so it isn't even very non-standard for them.

imo you kind of sound like a teenager rn

In what way?

also, we can talk about these theoretical genres that have no or very little female involvement but what makes me suspicious is when i see lists skewed towards genres where there IS a lot of female involvement - that includes indie and pop and dance and rap and in fact almost every genre that western popular music fans listen to - but SOMEHOW all those female artists are just not considered as good as the male ones.

define "a lot of female involvement" -- what % of rappers do you actually think are female, let alone % of albums of any renown released by female rappers?

Finding music that relates to one's personal experiences is really really tough no matter who you are.

even assuming this is true (doesn't matter either way), u can't front like it's not easier for you than for members of groups "represented" by a set of artists much smaller than yours. if it's hard for you imagine how hard it is for someone not white male or straight, right?

No I don't agree that it's bullshit. I eschew 90% of white guitar music I hear. Finding music that relates to one's personal experiences is really really tough no matter who you are. Whether one wants to listen to music that relates to you personally is another matter.

Easier≠easy. It is obviously easier for a white straight male to find music he might relate to on a number of levels. No matter how much you "eschew", there's still just so much more that is easily accessible and available and promoted to you that you are far more likely to find something that speaks to you. That's the luxury of being considered the default in society.

this "relates to one's personal experience" thing is a bullshit barometer anyway, wish whoever made up that phrase never polluted this conversation with it (xpost)

there's still just so much more that is easily accessible and available and promoted to you that you are far more likely to find something that speaks to you

yup and that it's considered socially acceptable for you to be into

define "a lot of female involvement" -- what % of rappers do you actually think are female, let alone % of albums of any renown released by female rappers?

plenty if you look. not all of them become "renowned" though, there are plenty of inbuilt biases that work against female rappers being considered "renowned" artists

Just because there are a glut of straight white male voices in music doesn't mean that it's any easier for a straight white man to find music that relates to his personal experience.

Actually, yes it does. That's exactly what it does mean.

― Turangalila, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:08 (4 minutes ago) Permalink

Statistically yes, but for the individual, not necessarily. Unless you believe that all white men are the same and have the same life experiences. There are plenty of white-male-dominated musical movements that developed as a reaction against other musical movements that were also dominated by white men. Conversely there is no lack of african american voices in popular music but that doesn't mean that there aren't still systemic biases against african americans.

"if you look" is the operative phrase there, homie

also, we can talk about these theoretical genres that have no or very little female involvement but what makes me suspicious is when i see lists skewed towards genres where there IS a lot of female involvement - that includes indie and pop and dance and rap and in fact almost every genre that western popular music fans listen to - but SOMEHOW all those female artists are just not considered as good as the male ones.

― lex pretend, Monday, August 20, 2012 1:15 PM

define "a lot of female involvement" -- what % of rappers do you actually think are female, let alone % of albums of any renown released by female rappers?

― some dude, Monday, August 20, 2012 1:18 PM

and even if you do look, you're likely to find a hell of a lot more male rappers

WLTM someone, anyone, without a single fucking electronic instrument on their list

― lex pretend, Monday, August 20, 2012 9:06 PM

^ approximately as winning

well there's the thing isn't it, how many people out there are actually looking for female rappers? and...why not? because they're not motivated to hear that perspective in rap?

well, the listenership of female rappers is probably HIGHER than the percentage of women in the rap game, so arguably they are being sought out

Statistically yes, but for the individual, not necessarily. Unless you believe that all white men are the same and have the same life experiences. There are plenty of white-male-dominated musical movements that developed as a reaction against other musical movements that were also dominated by white men. Conversely there is no lack of african american voices in popular music but that doesn't mean that there aren't still systemic biases against african americans.

holy shit are you saying that even white dudes against other white dudes have whole musical movements for a white dude to relate to

no you're right that was stupid. white dudes shouldn't relate to anything

well there's the thing isn't it, how many people out there are actually looking for female rappers? and...why not? because they're not motivated to hear that perspective in rap?

― lex pretend, Monday, August 20, 2012 1:28 PM (2 minutes ago)

well, rap arose from a specific cultural context. as it grows out from that point, it necessarily changes. maybe we think it isn't changing fast enough, but it seems to be pretty remarkably adaptable.

Because 'non-standard' means 'deviating from the norm', and 'popular' implies 'the norm'. Hence why I'm discussing the fact that maybe this is a 'non-standard list' for straight white indie-rock dudes but it isn't non-standard outside that very small pool. And in fact, in the 21st century most straight white indie-rock dudes have followed the trend towards pop music as the go-to hip cultural signifier, so it isn't even very non-standard for them.

i mean like i'm not trying to defend jeffrey bogarts garish list, but i at least will acknowledge it is hideous in a particular way. like imo a list is more than the sum of its parts & i think a list full of noise or krautrock albums could be as "standard" as a list of pop albums (altho if u are defining "standard" to mean "popular" i guess u are right tautologically). like say take something like tim's list upthread, it's non-standard in the sense that he's probably one of the only people that would have made such a list, yet a lot of the albums are very popular (prob more than in jb list), and many are critically acclaimed

no you're right that was stupid. white dudes shouldn't relate to anything

My god, it's full of straw.

turangalila's initial post was pretty simple and uncontroversial & i don't know if the people who are now debating it misunderstood it or what but

it's funny how we're savagely picking apart all these lists that are so much cooler and more varied than the actual poll results will be whenever they're published

also who said that white dudes can only relate to music made by white dudes? isn't that line of thinking only here because it's the white dude defence?

I think we were closer to the real issues with gender as opposed to race/culture. Also all of this is under the assumption that people listen to music because they find it "relatable".

I'm like the white people from that Chappelle sketch with John Mayer, except if it was Mark Kozelek or something.

My list has more music made by politically repressed Nigerians than yours. Why are you do narrow-minded?

i have absolutely nothing against wk, but i really do suspect that "the glut of straight white male voices" in certain types of music in fact does make it "easier for a straight white man to find music that relates to his personal experience." i meant, it has to be at least a little easier, right? cultural commonalities are a big part of whatever it is that allows us to identify and relate.

not that there's a crippling absence of gay, nonwhite and female voices in music, generally speaking...

Also all of this is under the assumption that people listen to music because they find it "relatable".

― Legendary General Cypher Raige (Gukbe), Monday, August 20, 2012 4:42 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

and who even believes that? hands up please

i think it figures in

you'd think, but I don't move anything like Jagger xpost

My interests in melody, structure, and aesthetic seem to relate directly with my favorite artists. I clearly gravitate to certain sounds and when done in particular ways I respond to that familiarity that can feel as intense as nostalgia.

I thought Bogart's list was interesting in that he included two "classical" albums in his top 20 (Lorraine Hunt Lieberson and John Adams).

OK this thread has exploded while I was away, and I've missed about a billion posts. BUT.

Maybe "relatable" isn't even the right word or concept.

But what it is about, is whose lived experiences are represented or depicted in the bulk of critically acclaimed and canonised art, and whose aren't.

Like, I kinda wanna issue a challenge to anyone who says that SWM have such a hard time finding stuff that represents or depicts their experiences:

For a whole week, try to listen exclusively to nothing buy music made by women. It doesn't matter what the genre is, just try to listen to stuff made by women, for a week. And in the lack of a Bechdel Test for music, we'll define that as: the music must be written or at least co-written by a woman, and if there are vocals, the lead vocal must be a woman. So that's a huge and generous and wide-open definition there.

(And for comparison, if you want, listen to nothing but SWM for a week, and see whether your range of choices is easier or harder, wider or narrower, or what.)

Go out and do this, and keep a list of the artists and genres that are open to you. And then come back and talk about it, and see whose experiences are more widely represented. Don't just talk theoretical bullshit about what you think is or isn't out there. Go out and try to find it, and see whether it is hard or easy to find, when you are specifically looking.

Maybe "relatable" isn't even the right word or concept.

But what it is about, is whose lived experiences are represented or depicted in the bulk of critically acclaimed and canonised art, and whose aren't.

agree with this

i have absolutely nothing against wk, but i really do suspect that "the glut of straight white male voices" in certain types of music in fact does make it "easier for a straight white man to find music that relates to his personal experience." i meant, it has to be at least a little easier, right? cultural commonalities are a big part of whatever it is that allows us to identify and relate.

"Easier" was the wrong word to put in there.

If a woman listens to nothing but music with women vocalists, I don't think anyone here has a big problem with that do they? It's understandable that she might be turned off by a male dominated point of view in much of popular music. Obviously male voices are privileged in society as a whole and in popular music specifically.

The problem is that men in their teens and twenties don't go through life thinking that they are lucky for their privilege and they're totally secure in their sense of identity, therefore they should make an effort to explore voices outside of their own experience. That would be a great, enlightened point of view and one that should be the standard for people who are writing about music professionally, or working within the music industry. But it seems silly to deny that there's some kind of basic human emotional response to that feeling of "that's just like me." One of us, one of us. I don't personally need that out of art. Or at least not all of the time, or not at this point in my life maybe. But I don't begrudge people who do. And I don't think a lack of representation in the media is the only valid reason for a person to seek out that kind of personal identification with art. So I don't think you can necessarily look at the music collection of a dude who only listens to dude music and assume that it's an indicator of bias. It might be, but it seems a little more complicated to me.

you mean artists new to us? xposts

because if not i could probably do that with just music from this year no problem.

Like, I kinda wanna issue a challenge to anyone who says that SWM have such a hard time finding stuff that represents or depicts their experiences:

I was totally wrong to put easy/hard in there. My point is that access to a broad range of voices that reinforce one's identity doesn't necessarily lessen the desire to lose oneself in that kind of insularity, does it?

sad to see this pitchfork thread devolve into fighting about white guys and indie rock :(

But what it is about, is whose lived experiences are represented or depicted in the bulk of critically acclaimed and canonised art, and whose aren't.

And this is relevant when it comes to music criticism and the creation of that canon through listmaking by professional critics. But I don't think it's as relevant when it comes down to the individual taste of a non-professional. And this is a "people's list". Of course that's complicated by the fact that a lot of ilxors are pro critics so WCC's game is more fairly applied to ilm than it would be to the general public. Plus this list is going to be published by Pitchfork and therefore presumably gain some sense of legitimacy or editorial approval so there is a chance that those personal tastes will get canonized into another list that will reinforce those biases.

Probably a zillion xposts by now...

Easier≠easy. It is obviously easier for a white straight male to find music he might relate to on a number of levels. No matter how much you "eschew", there's still just so much more that is easily accessible and available and promoted to you that you are far more likely to find something that speaks to you. That's the luxury of being considered the default in society.

― Melissa W, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:20 (22 minutes ago) Permalink

Statistically yes, but for the individual, not necessarily. Unless you believe that all white men are the same and have the same life experiences. There are plenty of white-male-dominated musical movements that developed as a reaction against other musical movements that were also dominated by white men. Conversely there is no lack of african american voices in popular music but that doesn't mean that there aren't still systemic biases against african americans.

i have absolutely nothing against wk, but i really do suspect that "the glut of straight white male voices" in certain types of music in fact does make it "easier for a straight white man to find music that relates to his personal experience." i meant, it has to be at least a little easier, right? cultural commonalities are a big part of whatever it is that allows us to identify and relate.

not that there's a crippling absence of gay, nonwhite and female voices in music, generally speaking...

― contenderizer, Monday, 20 August 2012 21:44 (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Quite a lot of thoughts here

- I'm not even sure there is that much of a bias towards white male orientated rock, other than on things like this list. IRL popular music has many many non-white, gay and female voices. Guitar rock, if we're going to define it this way, is absolutely not a 'norm' like it was even a few years ago. And what counts as "white male" music exactly? Is Autechre white music and Actress not? Am I more inclined to identify with the lyrics of the Libertines than St Vincent? (answer: no, if you hadn't guessed). Would I necessarily hold the same values, as a 31yo SWM from Hitchin, UK, as that of a SWM band of 21yo's from over the pond? Am I more likely to find some sort of lyrical or cultural connect with a female band of similar years who live in my locale?

Despite being one, I don't necessarily identify myself on a day-to-day basis as a "straight white male". You could say that's because I see myself as a cultural 'norm' and therefore don't have to, which I understand, but really I'm just a bloke from Hitchin, Hertfordshire who likes certain things, dislikes others. I don't go around thinking 'Yes, this straight white male music is the music I can really relate to'. Yes there's a lot of stuff out there that is made by and marketed towards 'straight white males' but there's also a lot of music marketed at black teenagers, middle-aged women etc.. There are also a lot of SWM walking around who would rather shit through their mouths than have to endure an indie rock album.

The question is, where does this feeling arise that there is somehow more music available to the SWM than there is to other cultural groups? Is it really valid? If so - why does it happen?

sorry that post ended up mentioning where I lived twice...

(And for comparison, if you want, listen to nothing but SWM for a week, and see whether your range of choices is easier or harder, wider or narrower, or what.)

Go out and do this, and keep a list of the artists and genres that are open to you. And then come back and talk about it, and see whose experiences are more widely represented. Don't just talk theoretical bullshit about what you think is or isn't out there. Go out and try to find it, and see whether it is hard or easy to find, when you are specifically looking.

― my god it's full of straw (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 20 August 2012 21:59 (17 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Okay cool, that is a point there.