The Pitchfork People's List - top albums 1996-2012

It's an uphill battle, too, for men who choose to work within the genre of female singer-songwriter

― omg stop talking (Ówen P.),

Wait what

I do sometimes wonder if that same cognitive dissonance is what stops men from being able to become-fans-of female artists. Like, they have such an oppositional approach to gender, they cannot hold the idea of "being a fan of x means being a girl or being gay" and "actually I really enjoy this music, what does that say about me?" If a man thinks of "being like a woman or gay man" as ~the worst thing ever~ how can they embrace fandom of an artist that they think of as coded as girly?

Also, why frame this in the context of "straight male listens to x music" when it could be applied to pretty much anyone at this juncture? Just as an example, is there a difference between asking your stereotypical hetero white British male why he does not listen to NY vogue-house; and asking a gay black man from New York why he doesn't listen to the Charlatans. It's probable that both may well do, but is it very likely?

I know you guys are into a pretty involved looking convo but I spent some time on this handmade list since I felt a bit like I missed out. Putting this out there- carry on otherwise, but I'd appreciate feedback!

1. Tobin Sprout – Carnival Boy
2. Swirlies – They Spent Their Wild Youthful Day In The Glittering World Of The Salons
3. Real Estate – Days
4. She, Sir – Who Can’t Say Yes
5. Guided By Voices – Under The Bushes Under The Stars
6. Calexico – Hot Rail
7. The Clientele – God Save The Clientele
8. Cass McCombs – Dropping The Writ
9. Sun Kil Moon – Ghosts Of The Great Highway
10. Wrens – Meadowlands
11. …And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Dead – Source Tags & Codes
12. The Tallest Man On Earth – Shallow Grave
13. Wilderness – Wilderness
14. 12 Rods – Split Personalities
15. Exploding Hearts – Guitar Romantic
16. Duster – Stratosphere
17. Polvo – Exploded Drawing
18. The Appleseed Cast – Low Level Owl Vol. 1 & 2
19. The Olivia Tremor Control - Black Foliage Vol. 1
20. Air France – No Way Down
21. Calexico – Feast Of Wire
22. Guided By Voices - Sunfish Holy Breakfast
23. Bottomless Pit – Hammer Of The Gods
24. Tobin Sprout - Moonflower Plastic
25. Polvo – In Prism
26. Isolee – We Are Monster
27. Lilys – Better Can’t Make Your Life Better
28. The Notwist – Neon Golden
29. Guided By Voices - Mag Earwhig!
30. …And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Dead - …And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Dead
31. Lullaby For The Working Class - I Never Even Asked For Light
32. The Clientele – Strange Geometry
33. Cass McCombs – Catacombs
34. Chavez – Ride The Fader
35. The Olivia Tremor Control – Music From The Unrealized Film Script Dusk At Cubist Castle
36. Versus – Two Cents Plus Tax
37. Swell – Too Many Days Without Thinking
38. Radiohead – In Rainbows
39. Clearlake - Cedars
40. Lilys – The Lilys
41. Plants And Animals – Parc Avenue
42. Radiohead – OK Computer
43. Peter And The Wolf – Lightness
44. Tim Hecker – Harmony in Ultraviolet
45. Japandroids – Post-Nothing
46. Sunny Day Real Estate – How It Feels To Be Something On
47. Bedhead – Transaction De Novo
48. Airport 5 – Tower In The Fountain Of Sparks
49. Animals That Swim – Workshy
50. Microphones – The Glow Pt. 2
51. EMA – Past Life Martyred Saints
52. Yo La Tengo – I Can Hear The Heart Beating As One
53. The Dismemberment Plan – Emergency & I
54. Destroyer – Destroyer’s Rubies
55. Herbert – Scale
56. Califone – Roots & Crowns
57. Pinback – Summer In Abaddon
58. Rocketship – A Certain Smile, A Certain Sadness
59. Sleater-Kinney – The Woods
60. Pavement – Terror Twilight
61. Goldenboy – Blue Swan Orchestra
62. Super Furry Animals – Guerilla
63. The Spinanes – Arches And Aisles
64. Hot Chip – The Warning
65. Lenola – My Invisible Name
66. Unwound – Leaves Turn Inside You
67. Dungen – Ta De Lungt
68. Red House Painters – Songs For A Blue Guitar
69. Deerhunter - Weird Era Cont.
70. Hum – Downward Is Heavenward
71. The Thermals – The Body, The Blood, The Machine
72. Mark Hollis – Mark Hollis
73. Teenage Fanclub – Songs From Northern Britain
74. Spiritualized – Ladies And Gentlemen We Are Floating In Space
75. Giant Sand – Chore Of Enchantment
76. Les Savy Fav – Inches
77. The Deadly Snakes – Ode To Joy
78. Life Without Buildings – Any Other City
79. Broken Social Scene – You Forgot It In People
80. The National – Boxer
81. The Vivian Girls – The Vivian Girls
82. Four Tet – Rounds
83. Bonnie Prince Billy – Lie Down In The Light
84. Shocking Pinks – Shocking Pinks
85. Spoon – A Series Of Sneaks
86. The Pains Of Being Pure At Heart – The Pains Of Being Pure At Heart
87. The Knife – Silent Shout
88. Mirah – C’mon Miracle
89. Menomena – I Am The Fun Blame Monster
90. Wilco - Yankee Hotel Foxtrot
91. Cut Copy – In Ghost Colors
92. Tough Alliance – A New Chance
93. Menomena – I Am The Fun Blame Monster
94. Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds – Dig, Lazarus, Dig!!!
95. The Clientele – The Violet Hour
96. Bibio – Ambivalence Avenue
97. Blur – 13
98. Wilderness – Vessel States
99. King Khan & The Shrines – What Is?!
100. Pavement – Brighten The Corners

brave man

That looks like a pretty racist list tbf

Jokes Bruv, jokes

Hahaha

You might need this, Dog Latin

http://www.chillingtontoolsonline.co.uk/images/products/large/Round-Mouth-Shovel.jpg

Keep digging.

iirc he hasn't actually offended anyone here except you, which y'know big accomplishment

No it's true my list is offensively white.

Oh! Isn't King Khan indian? Yeah, that's what I'm talking about!

Anyway

Also, why frame this in the context of "straight male listens to x music" when it could be applied to pretty much anyone at this juncture? Just as an example, is there a difference between asking your stereotypical hetero white British male why he does not listen to NY vogue-house; and asking a gay black man from New York why he doesn't listen to the Charlatans. It's probable that both may well do, but is it very likely?

because, just by virtue of being a gay man from New York, there is about a 60% chance your hypothetical gay black man from New York also listens to the Charlatans; the boxes you're constructing are overlapping rather than distinct, and they always seem to overlap in directions that make the straight white male the default by which everything else is othered

Pitchfork sucks dunnit?

you're trying to take a series of concentric spheres and turn them into a line

DJP - sorry I don't follow your post.

you're creating a scenario with two hypothetical people and painting stereotypical tastes upon them without allowing for the fact/idea that one set of those tastes is far more likely to be spread far and beyond the person to whom you're assigning them by virtue of the culture we exist in; the mental image of a gay black man from New York listening to The Charlatans is only unlikely because it's 2012, not 1991

so, you're basically taking overlapping spheres of influence and trying to treat them as if they're wholly distinct and equivalent in their pervasiveness in our culture, when they aren't and never have been

Wait what

it's a grain of "truth" inside a horribly formed "joke"

lol they're called "The Charlatans UK"

Xposts djp. I'm still not sure I follow what you're saying, sorry if I'm just being very thick here. Of course there's going to be a measure of overlap involved, but by and large NY vogue house was developed, and by and large defined, by the black/Latino gay scene in new York. The Charlatans might be a bad example, replace them with any old quintessentially British guitar band if you must. Of course one demographic is more likely to listen to one than the other - there'll be overlaps, but few surprises if you were to poll fans of such acts/styles. I have, I admit, managed to lose my train of thought on this as I'm on the hoof now and in danger of not being clear on what I meant so I'll leave it for now. I'm not trying to make out that white straight males ought to be considered some sort of norm though, quite the opposite.

it's just really loaded to pick one group that's developed its own musical subculture almost as a direct result of being marginalized by mainstream straight white culture and then contrast it with the British guitar bands that have been a cornerstone of popular music for 50 years

That is true.

my response to your arguments is that none of them make sense because you are not taking into consideration the pervasiveness in US/UK musical culture of the straight white male as the default against which everything else is measured, and as a result your arguments are hollow/naive

I mean, even in your hypothetical you are comparing an entire genre to any one example of a quintessentially British guitar band, because QBGBs are so pervasive you can build entire subgenres off of one band name; you're presenting this as an example of equivalence but it's fundamentally flawed from the ground up

I should delete this because some dude basically said the same thing from a different angle but maybe the angles are different enough to make this worth posting

I guess I was assuming the UK Charlatans didn't exactly leave an enormous dent on general US culture, but I could be wrong - i have no idea whether they became popular over there or not. But yeah I see how it's loaded.

they had 3 top ten modern rock hits between 1990 and 1992, including a #1 with "Weirdo", and were semi-inescapable during that time period

It's an uphill battle, too, for men who choose to work within the genre of female singer-songwriter

― omg stop talking (Ówen P.)

This is definitely an under-appreciated point: that sometimes men face some sort of speed bump (humps, UK) in an otherwise uninterrupted run of thousands of years of being on top.

Xpost Haha, okay that's actually kind of wow to me. It's like telling me Shed Seven outsold Destiny's Child in the US chart or something, so consider me boggled. I had no idea how popular they were, but then I was only about 9 when charlatans released Some Friendly.

99. King Khan & The Shrines – What Is?!

― Evan, Monday, August 20, 2012 9:08 AM (1 hour ago)

why o why did i not vote for this?

speed bump (humps, UK)

they're called "sleeping policemen" iirc

Sleeping Policemen UK

contenderizer- I never bothered to check out other King Khan projects beyond that album, which I love. Have you? How do they stack up?

Scoring 'hits' on the modern rock charts between 1990 and 1992 was not always a sign of general pervasiveness in the culture.

they are a sign of pervasiveness within a particular scene, and a good number of the gay black men I know from New York are all old enough to know exactly who Charlatans UK were and to be able to name at least one out of "Weirdo", "Then" and "The Only One I Know"

my point being that putting all gay black men in New York into the box that says "you only listen to vogue house" is stupid

they had 3 top ten modern rock hits between 1990 and 1992, including a #1 with "Weirdo", and were semi-inescapable during that time period

Semi-inescapable, I suppose, for a certain kind of listener. Only their first two albums cracked the Billboard 200, peaking at #73 and #173. And the number of radio stations that fed the modern-rock chart in 1990-92 would've been fairly limited. They certainly weren't being played in supermarkets.

(What Sund4r said.)

to extend something dog latin suggested a billion posts up, the essential character of certain subgenres of "extreme" music is defined not just by anger, violence and transgression, but by the macho, almost cartoonishly masculine aspects of the anger, violence and transgression on display. in suggesting this, i'm not denying that women can feel or express such things or that anyone is "naturally" this way or that. i am, however, suggesting that there are culturally-defined "masculine modes" that prevail in certain sorts of extreme music, and that, perhaps as a consequence, these musics do seem to attract a lot of men both as fans and as artists. the cultures that develop around such subgenres may at times be hostile to female fandom and/or participation, but that seems more an unfortunate consequence of unthinking tribalism (a human problem) than a black mark against the music and anyone who likes it.

contenderizer- I never bothered to check out other King Khan projects beyond that album, which I love. Have you? How do they stack up?

― Evan, Monday, August 20, 2012 10:49 AM (7 minutes ago)

that's the best KK & the shrines release, afaic, though three hairs and you're mine is nearly as good. beyond the shrines, the KK & BBQ album what's for dinner is pretty damn great. obviously much more stripped down than the the shrines, but w lots of great songs, rocks like nobody's business. the debut king khan & BBQ show album is good, but if you're starting from what is, i'd hold off on that until after what's for dinner, as it's not terribly well-recorded.

Djp - wait up I'm not saying that at all. I'm not categorising gay black men or straight white men in the way you say. I'm saying that if you were to poll all the fans of one style of music over another, you're going to get different results - there's no surprise in that. If you were to poll all the charlatans fans in the world, would you be surprised that there would be a spike where straight white males from the north of England are concerned, while significantly fewer will be gay black men from new York. And there are obvious reasons for that - ones that go beyond the usual accusations of prejudice.

Same as I wouldn't necessarily expect to get into a taxi driven by an ageing Sikh man who was playing his beloved copy of 'Heaven or Las Vegas'. (cue someone popping up and telling me about how Cocteau Twins' early EPs were distributed by South Asian taxi companies or something)

Contenderizer managed to express a lot of what I couldn't upthread. The irony is that metal is actually a hugely popular genre for females as well as males although this tends, speaking in very broad terms, to apply to fans of the genre rather than those who make it. I also think that depending on which band and style of metal is playing, you'll find different proportions of male/female ratios. It's not about 'you're a gurl, you don't get it', at least I really hope not and if anyone's ever said this to anyone, they deserve to have their eardrums removed.

i prefer the kk&bbq debut but both are essential & full of smash hits

It's just fun looking at all the album covers!

your larger point, DL, seems to be that music and culture are closely tied together. i have no argument there, but you have to know that speaking broadly about the presumable tastes of gay black men and aging sikh cabdrivers is going to irritate a lot of people...

hey btw what sparked this debate? i had figured they released the people's list & that it was exclusively male or sth but can't find it anywhere on the site

I think it started when looking at the male-centric lists were putting up. Crucially there were no judgments from anyone, just suggestions that there's a subconscious bias at work.

ah ok thx

Xpost. Contenderizer Yes I am saying that music and culture are interlinked, but what I am also saying is that people's musical preferences go far beyond this monochrome argument of male/female, black/white and it's unfair to make judgement based on whether someone listens to exclusively one or the other.

Thanks for the suggestions!

On another note I was going to mention how much of a wrench 1995 would have thrown into this mix in my case.

Xpost Don't forget I'm also speaking broadly about the presumed tastes of white northern englishers of a particular age. And of course they don't all listen to the Charlatans. Please understand, I'm talking about the demographic of a particular scene or band - not the music tastes of a particular culture. There is a difference.