The Pitchfork People's List - top albums 1996-2012

It happened for the first time when I was about 15, and getting into hardcore punk.

It happened again when I was in my 20s and getting into pure drone (which, ironically, someone upthread was trying to say had no females.)

The worst and most vigorous and hateful (probably because it was mostly internet based, therefore hiding behind anonymity) was IDM.

Then, funnily enough, when I went through that phase of dipping a toe in and "trying to understand metal" in order to understand why so many of my friends were into it, wow, there were those attitudes creeping in again. And that time, I just said "you know what, metal, it's not me, it's you" and walked away.

And the irony, Oblique, though I do agree with what you say, is that you put the dichotomy between "Rihanna and Kathleen Hanna" - like, seriously, have you actually listened to Rated R? Rihanna is a pop artist who has made a point of exploring dark, violent, "dangerous" emotions from a female perspective, so that criticism seems a bit hollow.

A billion x-posts but I think it's rude not to answer direct questions when phrased nicely.

You said large beardy dudes never listened to Britney. Tom Ewing is well known, in fact has a nickname due to, his large and luxuriant beard and is a big Britney fan. There's a thing called irony.

tbf the odds of there being someone that has a beard and loves britney are higher on ilx than pretty much anywhere else in the world

I don't think that's true -- Frank Ocean's the big crossover figure this year but in another year it's equally as likely to be, say, Janelle Monae (xpost)

― some dude, Monday, August 20, 2012 1:12 PM (45 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah, IIRC it was only maybe 5 years ago that people were complaining that male R&B got ignored by crossover tastemaker types.

he said big tough beardy

i also said "on the whole" - i never said "never".

Fair point Lex & WCC, Rihanna was just the first r&b/pop artist that came to mind. I shouldn't pretend to have a deep knowledge of her material. Please replace Rihanna w. the name of a fluffier pop singer. Let's say Taylor Swift.

haha what

hoo boy

Ah, so that's what "oblique strategies" means.

dude just stop

in fairness, angry Taylor Swift still comes across like kitten savaging a ball of yarn so I can see why it wouldn't be noticed

lol

dan, my grandmother's kitten would turn your balls into yarn.

RE Tim F's post (a million miles upthread): Just realised that I was led to listen to Robyn by Kieron Gillen, Dizzee Rascal by Simon Reynolds, and Pistol Annies by Alex Macpherson — all of whom provided an interesting frame thru which to approach the music they were writing about. They built up universes which I thought would be interesting to inhabit, and then I started listening and the music did its thing. I guess that's one way of summing up the way I "relate to music as a whole"...

angry taylor swift <3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCMqcFAigRg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao138HwSqow

This is like saying Beetlejuice three times in front of a mirror.

xpost compare

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybGOT4d2Hs8

xxxetcpost This is something I wonder at a lot - "what will make me tend to check X out sooner rather than later?"

In fact when we think about the old strawman of the "mindless sheep" of either the more basic 12 cds a year type or, the T-1000 model routinely downloading all P4K BNM selections, what the speaker is recoiling at isn't really the predictability of the music per se but the predictability of how the listener comes to it, what motivates them to check X out in the first place.

Oh, And WCC, I think it was me upthread who said "no women in drone" though technically I didn't say no women, Obviously there are women into outsider music (Marian Zazeela, Meredith Monk, on a more contemporary note Noveller or Grouper etc...). I think the point I was trying to make was that in my experience (which is: I work in music, my basic group of friends and acquantances are about 50/50 male / female, 80-90% of whom also work in music and all are smart, informed and have pretty left of centre tastes) I know only a handful of women who are in any way interested in drone.

xpost - Is this a good time to say: I don't listen to pop music? Ever. HA. I'll crawl back under my rock now shall I?

wtf @ "specialist establishments" too kmt

I know only a handful of women who are in any way interested in drone

tell that to pauline oliveros, eliane radiguet, maryanne amacher, marcia bassett etc fucking etc

They built up universes which I thought would be interesting to inhabit, and then I started listening and the music did its thing.

Something else I've been thinking: often the point where you might go from liking a particular genre/style/approach in a casual, individual instances way, to being really immersed, coincides with properly getting a feel for how the full-blown fan who structures their taste around that music conceives of it, understanding how they extract all the necessary nutrients from that source. I'm not sure whether one of those things is always the cause and one is always the effect, I suspect it's more circular than that. But I think it's true that even when we're relating directly to a piece of music we're also relating to an idea of that music and what it means to be a fan of it.

BTW at this point I'm basically judging anyone who is persisting with the "do certain genres have female participants or fans yes/no" conversation.

"trying to get into genre X" and being told flat out "but women aren't interested in genre X" and then being ignored (in best case scenario) or harassed, bullied and worse, until I get disgusted and leave"

proper fucked up and so far removed my irl experiences i can't imagine it ever happening (not that i'm doubting it did) without someone being totally shot down and esp in the drone / metal scenes where, in my irl experiences people are lovely, who are these assholes wcc? i bet they're radiohead fans!

i dunno whats going on here but this thread got me to finally listen to orchestra of bubbles, and...wow

90% of the Radiohead fans I know are women or gay dudes. (Or "gay for Jonny Greenwood" dudes, same thing.)

Orchestra of Bubbles is great, but Thrills is even better.

I think this is really important:

But I think it's true that even when we're relating directly to a piece of music we're also relating to an idea of that music and what it means to be a fan of it.

In some cases, it means identifying with "being a fan of X" and in some cases it means moving away from a warped or self-incompatible notion of "what it means to be a fan of X."

And the thing is, it's unhelpful to cast the difference between "assholes"/"lovely people" (except for the dudes who detail rape fantasies on watmm, they're assholes, definitely) - like, many of the people who will be totally lovely to you as a dude, or even be OK to me as an individual will still say and express these really hateful attitudes towards femininity itself (often with a caveat of "oh, but of course I don't mean you, I mean, those other, annoying girly-women.") To the point where the cognitive dissonance starts to kill me. Like, I have to let go of the idea of myself as a woman, as feminine or even girly to participate in the fandom - in these people's eyes. And that's really not fair to me, my gender or the fandom.

I do sometimes wonder if that same cognitive dissonance is what stops men from being able to become-fans-of female artists. Like, they have such an oppositional approach to gender, they cannot hold the idea of "being a fan of x means being a girl or being gay" and "actually I really enjoy this music, what does that say about me?" If a man thinks of "being like a woman or gay man" as ~the worst thing ever~ how can they embrace fandom of an artist that they think of as coded as girly?

Unless - and it's interesting that all the critics who were mentioned as opening the world to other artists through their writing were male - someone is shown an example of a man who is able to participate in the fandom.

I wonder how much "being involved" in scenes / genres / movements / cultures on a physical level is also an influencer; I almost literally never go to local gigs, have pretty much no connection with any local scene, talk with people about music almost entirely online (apart from with Emma and the DRC people), so I've almost literally no experience of who or what makes up the people who go to gigs or club nights or noise events or whatever. My listening is incredibly solipsistic.

It's an uphill battle, too, for men who choose to work within the genre of female singer-songwriter

I do sometimes wonder if that same cognitive dissonance is what stops men from being able to become-fans-of female artists. Like, they have such an oppositional approach to gender, they cannot hold the idea of "being a fan of x means being a girl or being gay" and "actually I really enjoy this music, what does that say about me?" If a man thinks of "being like a woman or gay man" as ~the worst thing ever~ how can they embrace fandom of an artist that they think of as coded as girly?

This is, I'm sad to say, probably a big factor for a lot of people. But then, y'know I've seen sitcoms where the dialogue'll go something like:

"I think Alan might be a bit, y'know..."
"Really? What makes you think that?"
"I heard him singing the whole of 'Send In The Clowns' in the shower"

Cue lots of canned laughter and further bad jokes...

And I dunno, it is sad and wrong that someone might be forced to feel shame or denial because of the music they enjoy - either to the point they feel they can only listen to it in secret or not listen to it at all. Or that they feel they might be judged by the music they listen to. I hope this is not the case for too many people. But then music is a statement. Like the clothes you wear or the way you speak, it does project a certain something about you to others. I wouldn't turn the speakers up if I were listening to offensive hiphop or harsh grinding noise music if I knew my housemates were within earshot. It's not just about bothering them with sound, but the type of sound. I mean, if I came home every day and cranked up the Cannibal Corpse to 11 every day, I think that would project something about myself to the people around me. They'd probably think I was a highly rantipole antisocial individual and treat me accordingly. Maybe not. Who knows?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness

i used to skew heavily towards male artists but now the only bands i listen to are the raincoats and kleenex/lilliput

It's an uphill battle, too, for men who choose to work within the genre of female singer-songwriter

― omg stop talking (Ówen P.),

Wait what

I do sometimes wonder if that same cognitive dissonance is what stops men from being able to become-fans-of female artists. Like, they have such an oppositional approach to gender, they cannot hold the idea of "being a fan of x means being a girl or being gay" and "actually I really enjoy this music, what does that say about me?" If a man thinks of "being like a woman or gay man" as ~the worst thing ever~ how can they embrace fandom of an artist that they think of as coded as girly?

Also, why frame this in the context of "straight male listens to x music" when it could be applied to pretty much anyone at this juncture? Just as an example, is there a difference between asking your stereotypical hetero white British male why he does not listen to NY vogue-house; and asking a gay black man from New York why he doesn't listen to the Charlatans. It's probable that both may well do, but is it very likely?

I know you guys are into a pretty involved looking convo but I spent some time on this handmade list since I felt a bit like I missed out. Putting this out there- carry on otherwise, but I'd appreciate feedback!

1. Tobin Sprout – Carnival Boy
2. Swirlies – They Spent Their Wild Youthful Day In The Glittering World Of The Salons
3. Real Estate – Days
4. She, Sir – Who Can’t Say Yes
5. Guided By Voices – Under The Bushes Under The Stars
6. Calexico – Hot Rail
7. The Clientele – God Save The Clientele
8. Cass McCombs – Dropping The Writ
9. Sun Kil Moon – Ghosts Of The Great Highway
10. Wrens – Meadowlands
11. …And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Dead – Source Tags & Codes
12. The Tallest Man On Earth – Shallow Grave
13. Wilderness – Wilderness
14. 12 Rods – Split Personalities
15. Exploding Hearts – Guitar Romantic
16. Duster – Stratosphere
17. Polvo – Exploded Drawing
18. The Appleseed Cast – Low Level Owl Vol. 1 & 2
19. The Olivia Tremor Control - Black Foliage Vol. 1
20. Air France – No Way Down
21. Calexico – Feast Of Wire
22. Guided By Voices - Sunfish Holy Breakfast
23. Bottomless Pit – Hammer Of The Gods
24. Tobin Sprout - Moonflower Plastic
25. Polvo – In Prism
26. Isolee – We Are Monster
27. Lilys – Better Can’t Make Your Life Better
28. The Notwist – Neon Golden
29. Guided By Voices - Mag Earwhig!
30. …And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Dead - …And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Dead
31. Lullaby For The Working Class - I Never Even Asked For Light
32. The Clientele – Strange Geometry
33. Cass McCombs – Catacombs
34. Chavez – Ride The Fader
35. The Olivia Tremor Control – Music From The Unrealized Film Script Dusk At Cubist Castle
36. Versus – Two Cents Plus Tax
37. Swell – Too Many Days Without Thinking
38. Radiohead – In Rainbows
39. Clearlake - Cedars
40. Lilys – The Lilys
41. Plants And Animals – Parc Avenue
42. Radiohead – OK Computer
43. Peter And The Wolf – Lightness
44. Tim Hecker – Harmony in Ultraviolet
45. Japandroids – Post-Nothing
46. Sunny Day Real Estate – How It Feels To Be Something On
47. Bedhead – Transaction De Novo
48. Airport 5 – Tower In The Fountain Of Sparks
49. Animals That Swim – Workshy
50. Microphones – The Glow Pt. 2
51. EMA – Past Life Martyred Saints
52. Yo La Tengo – I Can Hear The Heart Beating As One
53. The Dismemberment Plan – Emergency & I
54. Destroyer – Destroyer’s Rubies
55. Herbert – Scale
56. Califone – Roots & Crowns
57. Pinback – Summer In Abaddon
58. Rocketship – A Certain Smile, A Certain Sadness
59. Sleater-Kinney – The Woods
60. Pavement – Terror Twilight
61. Goldenboy – Blue Swan Orchestra
62. Super Furry Animals – Guerilla
63. The Spinanes – Arches And Aisles
64. Hot Chip – The Warning
65. Lenola – My Invisible Name
66. Unwound – Leaves Turn Inside You
67. Dungen – Ta De Lungt
68. Red House Painters – Songs For A Blue Guitar
69. Deerhunter - Weird Era Cont.
70. Hum – Downward Is Heavenward
71. The Thermals – The Body, The Blood, The Machine
72. Mark Hollis – Mark Hollis
73. Teenage Fanclub – Songs From Northern Britain
74. Spiritualized – Ladies And Gentlemen We Are Floating In Space
75. Giant Sand – Chore Of Enchantment
76. Les Savy Fav – Inches
77. The Deadly Snakes – Ode To Joy
78. Life Without Buildings – Any Other City
79. Broken Social Scene – You Forgot It In People
80. The National – Boxer
81. The Vivian Girls – The Vivian Girls
82. Four Tet – Rounds
83. Bonnie Prince Billy – Lie Down In The Light
84. Shocking Pinks – Shocking Pinks
85. Spoon – A Series Of Sneaks
86. The Pains Of Being Pure At Heart – The Pains Of Being Pure At Heart
87. The Knife – Silent Shout
88. Mirah – C’mon Miracle
89. Menomena – I Am The Fun Blame Monster
90. Wilco - Yankee Hotel Foxtrot
91. Cut Copy – In Ghost Colors
92. Tough Alliance – A New Chance
93. Menomena – I Am The Fun Blame Monster
94. Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds – Dig, Lazarus, Dig!!!
95. The Clientele – The Violet Hour
96. Bibio – Ambivalence Avenue
97. Blur – 13
98. Wilderness – Vessel States
99. King Khan & The Shrines – What Is?!
100. Pavement – Brighten The Corners

brave man

That looks like a pretty racist list tbf

Jokes Bruv, jokes

Hahaha

You might need this, Dog Latin

http://www.chillingtontoolsonline.co.uk/images/products/large/Round-Mouth-Shovel.jpg

Keep digging.

iirc he hasn't actually offended anyone here except you, which y'know big accomplishment

No it's true my list is offensively white.

Oh! Isn't King Khan indian? Yeah, that's what I'm talking about!

Anyway

Also, why frame this in the context of "straight male listens to x music" when it could be applied to pretty much anyone at this juncture? Just as an example, is there a difference between asking your stereotypical hetero white British male why he does not listen to NY vogue-house; and asking a gay black man from New York why he doesn't listen to the Charlatans. It's probable that both may well do, but is it very likely?

because, just by virtue of being a gay man from New York, there is about a 60% chance your hypothetical gay black man from New York also listens to the Charlatans; the boxes you're constructing are overlapping rather than distinct, and they always seem to overlap in directions that make the straight white male the default by which everything else is othered

Pitchfork sucks dunnit?

you're trying to take a series of concentric spheres and turn them into a line

DJP - sorry I don't follow your post.

you're creating a scenario with two hypothetical people and painting stereotypical tastes upon them without allowing for the fact/idea that one set of those tastes is far more likely to be spread far and beyond the person to whom you're assigning them by virtue of the culture we exist in; the mental image of a gay black man from New York listening to The Charlatans is only unlikely because it's 2012, not 1991