The Pitchfork People's List - top albums 1996-2012

I think if you were a Pitchfork reading indie fan taking the path of least resistance in 2012 you'd have been pointed in the direction of a lot of female voices from your "own block". Taking Pitchfork's Best New Music selections 2012 alone would give you Jessie Ware, Purity Ring, Dirty Projectors, Fiona Apple, Beach House, Chromatics, Julia Holter, Grimes and Frankie Rose, which isn't 50% but it's not far off especially when you remove the rappers and Frank Ocean.

I mean the Pitchfork universe has always struck me as pretty open to female voices within certain defined aesthetics. But when you go beyond that the selections are overwhelmingly male - a relatively unknown male R&B singer is likely to get more traction than a female one.

I mean the Pitchfork universe has always struck me as pretty open to female voices within certain defined aesthetics.

I'd agree if you replaced "always" with "recently"

I don't think that's true -- Frank Ocean's the big crossover figure this year but in another year it's equally as likely to be, say, Janelle Monae (xpost)

I have typed about 3 or 4 detailed responses on this thread, then just given up and hit the back button. I'm tempted to just link to previous posts of mine, or blog entries or whatever. This feels so circular at this point.

Did Pitchfork (I don't keep tabs on Pitchfork at all btw, so a lot of the backlash bemuses me somewhat) cover Solange Knowles? Do they cover Rihanna? Cassie? etc. Just curious here.

I'd agree if you replaced "always" with "recently"

Yeah okay I'd go with that.

This is one reason why it's much easier to get a handle on how a person relates to music as a whole (or, perhaps more accurately, self-relates as a fan and consumer of music) by finding out who/what they read on music (assuming they read anyone) than what they listen to.

^^ otm

I have typed about 3 or 4 detailed responses on this thread, then just given up and hit the back button. I'm tempted to just link to previous posts of mine, or blog entries or whatever. This feels so circular at this point.

― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 20 August 2012 14:13 (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

What is even more frustrating and circular is the presence of posts like this every page or two. Really - REALLY - I'm not trying to flame here, but please try and have patience. You've obviously thought about your position on this subject a lot, but sighing and rolling your eyes and moaning about certain turns of discussion is as tedious as you're making it out to be at best; and condescending to those you're speaking with at worst. Not everyone can be expected to intuit your specific thoughts and feelings on this (obviously fairly touchy/hot topic).

Dog Latin, you are aware that a few days, you were arguing that Metal was *not* defined by certain emotions (anger, aggression, etc.) And now today, you are arguing that the reason "women don't like metal" is because it is dominated by certain emotions (anger, aggression) which are so ~masculine~ that women don't ever, ever feel them?

1) Which is it? Metal is or is not dominated by anger and aggression? Make up your mind, please.

2) As to visceral anger and aggression being "masculine." You are aware that women can and *do* feel emotions of anger and aggression. In fact, given the levels of frustration inspired in me by this thread, I can assure you, as a woman, that rage and anger are a big, big part of females' experience.

xp There was a moment about five years ago when I realized "holy crap I have no problem with Pitchfork vs. gays, Pitchfork vs. women" but I don't remember what brought it on.

Re: TimF's thing about "what they read", it's so true and it's changed my own thought process. In the early 00s I would've said "sounds like Kranky" and now it's "sounds like you read XXJFG"

rip labels

If you can't even remember your *own* arguments, Dog Latin, really, why should I spend my time and energy and emotional wherewithall making points over and again until they get through to you? Knowing full well that I'll be accused of clusterfucking and not being able to let go of an argument etc. if I do try to make those points yet again.

WCC - I may be putting words in dog latins mouth here but it's totally reasonable to argue that a genre shouldn't be defined by certain criteria while accepting that it is perceived to be defined that way by the majority of people.

Dog Latin, you are aware that a few days, you were arguing that Metal was *not* defined by certain emotions (anger, aggression, etc.) And now today, you are arguing that the reason "women don't like metal" is because it is dominated by certain emotions (anger, aggression) which are so ~masculine~ that women don't ever, ever feel them?

Don't think I said any of these things. Metal has its tropes. I would say it is a masculine sound. The latterday discussion was saying that boiling metal's emotional impact down to terms such as "anger" is simplistic, and not always true. Something like Napalm Death, yeah it's "angry" (among other things), whereas Rhapsody aren't angry at all. I also didn't say women don't like metal. There are bands like Cradle of Filth whose fanbase is largely female. But there's a reason you go to a CoF gig and see lots of women whereas if you were to go to a Napalm gig you might see fewer.

It's very simple really. Outside of maybe a few specialist establishments in Soho, you don't often get big tough beardy dudes getting down to Britney on the whole. That's not sexism, that's just how taste works.

music that would be considered macho, aggressive, visceral etc that is almost inarguably masculine, and therefore male-dominated by nature.

male dominated by nature.

Let's just look at that again.

Male-dominated by nature. Because that's nature. Men are angry, women are...

Let me tell you, reading this rubbish, right now, it makes me so angry I wish I could reach you through the monitor and punch you.

It's not simple. And it is complete fucking sexism.

oh jesus. well, that's me out of here.

Tim and Owen are, respectfully, getting at some very interesting points.

And instead I'm letting myself get derailed by someone waving a red flag of "men are ~naturally~ like this, women are ~naturally~ like that" utter stupidity at me. I apologise to the thread and the board for letting myself get trolled by that. Please carry on, Tim and Owen.

Don't really see how being big tough and beardy would mean not liking Britney. That's not how taste works I don't think.

I reviewed the second Solange album for pitchfork but was the wrong choice for a "pitchfork" review given I was a bit down on the swirly electronic portions of the album.

On a grander scale, If you wish to analyze gender / race / sexuality breakdown in listening habits then you need to look at the balance of participation in certain genres, the societal boundaries to that participation and from there whether ones habits enforce, uphold or seek to redress those imbalances.

Outside of maybe a few specialist establishments in Soho, you don't often get big tough beardy dudes getting down to Britney on the whole. That's not sexism, that's just how taste works.

ajkldkjdfkjdkjsdiodidknc,lxknl;;;ls;spsp---

Tom Ewing has a massive beard, and he made Blackout his number one album on this thing. Huh.

have seen plenty angry tough bearded metal dudes getting down to britney fwiw

The better "simple" answer to " why is genre X dominated by a single sex" is "because most of the people participating in that genre want it to be dominated by a single sex". It isn't until you start asking "why?" that interesting conversations start happening.

i feel like generally speaking, lots of women make the music they want to make now, and lots of music fans of both genders listen to it. there's always going to be specific cases of marginalization or prejudice, among listeners and within music scenes, that are worth discussing and getting mad about, but i have no idea how we can even analyze this kind of thing on such a macro scale without uselessly second-guessing every fact and detail into total nonsense.

playing referee between WCC and Dog Latin again, I think it's totally reasonable to assert that there is societal pressure on women to downplay their own aggression.
I know plenty of aggressive & angry women, I don't think anyone here would argue against it being a natural state however it's not something that's accepted as a "natural" feminine trait within the gender binary so women are under immense pressure to identify more with Rihanna than Kathleen Hanna. Therefore it is "natural" within the society we live in that women are discouraged from taking part in aggressive genres of music far more than the pressure that already exists for them just to take part in musical creation at all.

The better "simple" answer to " why is genre X dominated by a single sex" is "because most of the people participating in that genre want it to be dominated by a single sex". It isn't until you start asking "why?" that interesting conversations start happening.

I have detailed, many times before, my experiences, as a woman, of "trying to get into genre X" and being told flat out "but women aren't interested in genre X" and then being ignored (in best case scenario) or harassed, bullied and worse, until I get disgusted and leave. So that men can continue to justify their masculinity by saying "I'm a man, and I'm into genre X, which is a masculine genre, because no women like it, because it is so tough and manly" while totally discounting, that actually, several women have turned up, liked it, and they have chased them away.

But no matter how many times I say this, the Dog Latins of the world will keep insisting that it never happened and it can't possibly be true, because they haven't seen it.

There's "being a woman, making music", and then there's "being a person, listening (or not listening) to music made by women" and there's "being a professional writer, paid to respond to music made by women" and I feel these three things are getting a tad conflated itt

Not quite the same but somewhat on par with having to constantly correct people who think I'm gay (at least in part) because my musical tastes are occasionally flaming.

WCC, Just out of interest (and because I don't have time to search for old threads) what genres did you have this experience with?

Let's all take a break and listen to planningtorock now I hear she does a fine grotesque parody of masculinity

if there's great records made by women that aren't getting a fair shake from critics and listeners, doesn't it kind of do a disservice to those records to simply frame an argument about that in terms of "hey you're not listening to enough women" instead of "hey these records are great and worthy of your attention"?

#1 wish is that people stop worrying about getting into genres and just get into tracks

a Planningtorock/The Three O'Clock double bill would be fun

xp I'd say the former to critics and the latter to listeners

That's very true, some dude, but the argument is that great records by women get overshadowed by great records (or even only pretty good records) by men, because of all sorts of socio-cultural influences and subconscious biases.

Xposts

djp otm

i feel like this doesn't need to be a redundant circular conversation b/c there's a lot of history to unpack w/r/t how certain areas are male-dominated etc, but it'd be better if it involved actual specifics - like genre x has this particular history of gender relations and roles etc, or, jumping off tim's post, this particular gateway to music had this particular gender bias etc. analysing on a macro scale would prob be too vague but it's composed of plenty of micro scales. but obviously that needs to be done without nonsense cod-psychology like "big beardy men don't like britney because they just don't" o_0

I know plenty of aggressive & angry women, I don't think anyone here would argue against it being a natural state however it's not something that's accepted as a "natural" feminine trait within the gender binary so women are under immense pressure to identify more with Rihanna than Kathleen Hanna

rihanna isn't angry?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JigpwQ30fhY

"i lick the gun when i'm done cuz i know that revenge is sweet / this is a gang, ladies bang, baby bang tell me what you need"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEhy-RXkNo0

^^how many mainstream pop stars you know who've made a video explicitly about gaining their revenge on a rapist?

The better "simple" answer to " why is genre X dominated by a single sex" is "because most of the people participating in that genre want it to be dominated by a single sex". It isn't until you start asking "why?" that interesting conversations start happening.

my "djp otm" was to this, many xps

xxxxposts So many words have been shoved in my mouth I can barely speak.

I will just say that by "male-dominated by nature", I'm simply talking about the perceived imbalance of male/female metal artists - which I believe has been established quite clearly in this thread. I am not denying that women can and do experience the same emotions as men. Actually WTF, do you believe I'm stupid?

No of course big beardy dudes listen to Britney all the time, my apologies. I just looked at a few Britney concerts online and there they are - dozens and dozens of massive beardy dudes down the front singing every word. I had no idea her fanbase was so predominantly made up of big beardy dudes. I stand corrected.

Also, what's Tom Ewing got to do with all this? Not that his opinion isn't important, but when discussing music and attitudes I don't think it's right to use a professional music critic's favourite album because Ilxors and music critics generally listen to all kinds of stuff that spans a gigantic remit. They are the obvious exception, unlike a more casual or specialist listener who has more clearly defined preferences to what they hear.

It happened for the first time when I was about 15, and getting into hardcore punk.

It happened again when I was in my 20s and getting into pure drone (which, ironically, someone upthread was trying to say had no females.)

The worst and most vigorous and hateful (probably because it was mostly internet based, therefore hiding behind anonymity) was IDM.

Then, funnily enough, when I went through that phase of dipping a toe in and "trying to understand metal" in order to understand why so many of my friends were into it, wow, there were those attitudes creeping in again. And that time, I just said "you know what, metal, it's not me, it's you" and walked away.

And the irony, Oblique, though I do agree with what you say, is that you put the dichotomy between "Rihanna and Kathleen Hanna" - like, seriously, have you actually listened to Rated R? Rihanna is a pop artist who has made a point of exploring dark, violent, "dangerous" emotions from a female perspective, so that criticism seems a bit hollow.

A billion x-posts but I think it's rude not to answer direct questions when phrased nicely.

You said large beardy dudes never listened to Britney. Tom Ewing is well known, in fact has a nickname due to, his large and luxuriant beard and is a big Britney fan. There's a thing called irony.

tbf the odds of there being someone that has a beard and loves britney are higher on ilx than pretty much anywhere else in the world

I don't think that's true -- Frank Ocean's the big crossover figure this year but in another year it's equally as likely to be, say, Janelle Monae (xpost)

― some dude, Monday, August 20, 2012 1:12 PM (45 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah, IIRC it was only maybe 5 years ago that people were complaining that male R&B got ignored by crossover tastemaker types.

he said big tough beardy

i also said "on the whole" - i never said "never".

Fair point Lex & WCC, Rihanna was just the first r&b/pop artist that came to mind. I shouldn't pretend to have a deep knowledge of her material. Please replace Rihanna w. the name of a fluffier pop singer. Let's say Taylor Swift.

haha what

hoo boy

Ah, so that's what "oblique strategies" means.