The Pitchfork People's List - top albums 1996-2012

You know where they're less successful too? The kitchen. Damn things can't even boil water.

rap's another example. we can certainly find female rappers, but there do seem to be a hell of a lot more men actively pursing careers in the genre. this is less true now than it was, say, 20 years ago, but i think the imbalance still exists.

I can only assume you guys are talking at cross purposes here.

oh my god it's the exact same argument with the exact same people saying the exact same things all over again

totally feeling WCC's frustration

White male guilt: don't wanna read about it (but you guys better feel it)

White male guilt: don't wanna read about it (but you guys better feel it)

Owen, that was an uncharacteristically dickish thing for you to say, and out of line.

<3 I was joking and I'll stfu if I offended

oh my god it's the exact same argument with the all over again

totally feeling WCC's frustration

― lex pretend, Monday, August 20, 2012 4:28 AM (18 minutes ago)

you can hardly make this complaint when you're one of "the exact same people saying the exact same things"

otm

erm, i haven't really been posting in this thread for that exact reason

me neither! high five

The idea of "identification" is an interesting one to me, whether it's about exploring the world view of someone "other" and finding common ground in some aspect of it (and expanding yourself), or whether it's about having yourself reflected back at you. Because I don't think I look for either in music particularly; I'm not really into lyrics and I don't think that much of the music I love describes world views or experiences all that much (although some of it clearly does), and even the stuff that does do that, it's generally not an important facet of it to me. I think I mainly get an aesthetic, sensual kick out of music, for the most part.

I wanna make an "...on my yacht" joke but instead I'm just gonna

I find it very difficult to discuss topics like this, so forgive me if I appear gauche here.

But the discussion's set me thinking about the relevance of something like hiphop in a country like America, compared to say the UK. Say (like me) you're a white middle class male from the UK. And say the majority of acts you picked were white middle-class males. Now, a lot of critics may ask "Why such a lack of black artists on your list?" which is a fair enough question - hip hop and r'n'b being huge genres with a whole gamut of records to pick from. But surely (for someone from the UK) this is intrinsically asking "Why are you not listening to music of a very specific genre, from a location miles away across the Atlantic, often made by Black Americans?". It completely discounts the question of why as a UK resident you're not taking the time to listen to music of Indian or Arabic or Polish origin etc, seeing as you're just as likely (if not more likely) to come across people of these backgrounds in day-to-day life than you are a Black American. Yes, the UK has it's own plethora of black musical styles such as grime, but it's not really an 'albums' genre.

I absolutely agree with the idea of music as escapism, of being shown a window into another world. Coming from a pretty staid suburban town, not quite near enough to London to allow regular trips, literally all music that isn't the Bluetones provides that kind of escapism. Strictly speaking minimal house (being way more popular in urban settings) is almost as foreign to me as African kuduro. In order to branch into music that doesn't speak directly to white Britishers from commuter belt market towns, I have to mentally assume a role; pretend I'm someone or somewhere else for a bit. That's what music is in a lot of cases really - the soundtrack to an imaginary film. In some cases I want Spike Lee, in others I want Mike Leigh. It takes different levels of play acting to get into that mental role as a listener; to imagine the scene and therefore create a world around oneself that will suit whatever style of music one is listening to, be it death metal, experimental electronica, Britpop or Miami bass.

I think something like hip-hop can seem a lot more exotic, and therefore maybe more impenetrable to Britishers than to Americans. I do like a lot of hiphop, but if I find myself shying away from listening to it on a regular basis, it's not because of any reason other than I find it takes a fair amount of mental work to understand the lyrics and truly soak it up. I can't read and listen to hiphop for example, or concentrate on very much at all unless I'm doing nothing else but listen. I feel like it needs my full attention, like watching an episode of the Wire or something - it doesn't work for me as wallpaper music.

I think I just realized that at least part of the reason I listen to a larger percentage of music that doesn't fit my particular demographic is that (speaking as a straight, white male) I find most straight, white males to be completely baffling.

I thought I hated Ludacris for years and then I realized I only hated him because I ~am~ him

the "identification" thing is a pretty limited argument imo because so much music is either instrumental or doesn't have any particular cultural perspective in the lyrics that has anything to do with the race or nationality etc. of the artist.

i don't think it's remarkable is a "12 CDs a year" type listens to primarily people who look like them, but if you have thousands of albums and that's still the case, i dunno, i think it's worth looking at.

Well to pick 2 artists that I came to love when I was a teenager, NWA and The Smiths, both of them seemed equally 'exotic' or 'alien' to me. I could no more imagine hanging out with 'Strawberry' than I could see myself spouting poetry in graveyards tbh.

spouting poetry at Strawberry in the graveyard = Salem

lol

Oh I definitely spouted poetry in graveyards.

nice to meet you, Morrissey

Mistake we all seem to make is to think that this is about the specific music we listen to and how we relate to it. I think it's much more (and/or much more often) about the musical conversations we have, who we're having them with, how we are lead to music and how much we resist (mostly passively) or propel the forces leading us. This is one reason why it's much easier to get a handle on how a person relates to music as a whole (or, perhaps more accurately, self-relates as a fan and consumer of music) by finding out who/what they read on music (assuming they read anyone) than what they listen to.

On an individual level there's nothing stopping people ending up being totally immersed - to the point of myopic obsession - with a type of music totally divorced from their background. This is true of all areas of life, and the many odd things that end up defining people's sense of the world world. But the world also tends to drive most of us some of the way, and some of us most of the way, down paths of less resistance.

How we are lead into music is quite a salient point i think Tim. For instance the main reason I bought 'It takes A Nation Of Millions' (which was the first rap album I owned) was because the NME described it as "the greatest rock n roll album of the year" or something like that. Which is reductive but worked on me.

That's exactly the kind of thing I mean, though obv (as your comment alludes) it's a more bald-faced example and usually these processes are much more insidious/subtle ("insidious" probably has unnecessarily negative implications but you get what I mean).

Great post Tim

tim otm. if there's a problem here, it's less what individuals do or don't like and more the way canon-building & conversation-driving entities emphasize certain voices over others. of course, that's a pretty big and complex subject too.

Also - why we listen to music and what qualities we enjoy. There are people who genuinely prefer music that is raw, macho, visceral, antagonistic and so may be drawn to certain elements of heavy metal or hiphop, whereas others listen out for sounds that are mellow, groovy, chilled out, cool and therefore are more naturally inclined towards r'n'b or house. For a lot of people it's the reason they listen to music at all - not because they want a varied musical diet with a panoply of emotions. Some people go through life not giving a hoot about music until one day they come across, say, a Minor Threat track that hits them over the head and after that they're hooked on hardcore with little need to sway or diversify from that sound because it quells a certain appetite that they have a strong craving for - a craving that simply won't be satiated by, say, disco or whatever. That person might like to diversify a little. Maybe they hear the same kind of thrill in listening to hardcore as they do in metal, gabba, gangsta rap, but maybe it's specifically hardcore that works for them and the buck stops there. For someone like this, listening to any other music is either a waste of time or bordering on painful.

This is where comparisons between things like race and class (people who are othered because we are separated from them by culture) and things like gender and sexuality (people who are othered even though they inhabit the same culture) just completely break down.

This is what I just find so frustrating: when someone who can get obsessed with music made by a man completely outside of their experience from the other side of the world, musically will, at the same time, just not even consider the idea of listening to or, in this case "canonising" (listifying?) a woman on their musical block.

again, though, i think that's incredibly reliant on how much of a given 'musical block' is even populated by women. in some cases you'd have to look really hard to find even one.

xpost but who does this WCC? I don't believe anybody who's got an interest in a style of music from the other side of the world would prefer a male/female artists merely based on the grounds of basic sexism. If I were interested in, say Nyabinghi-style roots reggae, the experience of actively seeking out this kind of music (probably via a compilation most likely) would make "oh no i don't want to listen to that because it's sung by a woman" sound very strange indeed...

People having a problem with women's singing voices is a deep and storied history

again, though, i think that's incredibly reliant on how much of a given 'musical block' is even populated by women. in some cases you'd have to look really hard to find even one.

Why? That is a question that needs asking, too.

1) is this really an actual genre without any women at all, or have the women in that genre been routinely discounted or ignored?

2) there are some genres where it feels like (to me) the lack-of-women is a feature, not a bug. What does it say about someone if they are really drawn to that genre? Is it the music they like, or the girl-free lifestyle?

(And I say that as a woman who has many, many times, been attracted to and tried to participate in certain genres that code as male, and been told flat out "women don't like this" or harassed until I leave. Women-free spaces very rarely happen by accident these days.)

And again - there is music out there that clicks certain buttons for people; music that would be considered macho, aggressive, visceral etc that is almost inarguably masculine, and therefore male-dominated by nature. There are some tremendous female death metal vocalists for example, but they tend to be the exception rather than the rule. It would take some extreme denial not to be stunned by the presence of someone like Angela Gossow (Arch Enemy), who can cookie-monster growl better than a lot of male metal singers.

But equally, there's plenty of music out there for people who prefer a more traditionally feminine touch. R'n'B is a genre where females appear to be canonised if not equally then more than their male counterparts. But R'n'B isn't really a very aggressive or hard-hitting genre. It's not going to click everyone's buttons, but it is one of the most popular styles of music in the Western world, so it's not as if it's being ignored.

1) is this really an actual genre without any women at all, or have the women in that genre been routinely discounted or ignored?

yeah of course there aren't, but i think there are still plenty of situations where the participation level is like 95% or 99% male

what genres are these? i guess metal is one, judging from what people say.

lol no

chicks dig metal. plenty do. it's more about what one seeks out in music though, innit? the values you're drawn to. most people have categories of emotions/feelings/sounds that they enjoy hearing and others they don't. metal could be seen as having a particularly masculine sound, but then if you take a band like Cradle Of Filth, they have a huge huge female fanbase.

so way more than 1 in 20 metal musicians is female? i have no idea really but i wouldn't have guessed. (xpost)

There's def more women in popular, working metal bands than ones with salable rap careers in 2012

I think if you were a Pitchfork reading indie fan taking the path of least resistance in 2012 you'd have been pointed in the direction of a lot of female voices from your "own block". Taking Pitchfork's Best New Music selections 2012 alone would give you Jessie Ware, Purity Ring, Dirty Projectors, Fiona Apple, Beach House, Chromatics, Julia Holter, Grimes and Frankie Rose, which isn't 50% but it's not far off especially when you remove the rappers and Frank Ocean.

I mean the Pitchfork universe has always struck me as pretty open to female voices within certain defined aesthetics. But when you go beyond that the selections are overwhelmingly male - a relatively unknown male R&B singer is likely to get more traction than a female one.

I mean the Pitchfork universe has always struck me as pretty open to female voices within certain defined aesthetics.

I'd agree if you replaced "always" with "recently"

I don't think that's true -- Frank Ocean's the big crossover figure this year but in another year it's equally as likely to be, say, Janelle Monae (xpost)

I have typed about 3 or 4 detailed responses on this thread, then just given up and hit the back button. I'm tempted to just link to previous posts of mine, or blog entries or whatever. This feels so circular at this point.

Did Pitchfork (I don't keep tabs on Pitchfork at all btw, so a lot of the backlash bemuses me somewhat) cover Solange Knowles? Do they cover Rihanna? Cassie? etc. Just curious here.

I'd agree if you replaced "always" with "recently"

Yeah okay I'd go with that.

This is one reason why it's much easier to get a handle on how a person relates to music as a whole (or, perhaps more accurately, self-relates as a fan and consumer of music) by finding out who/what they read on music (assuming they read anyone) than what they listen to.

^^ otm

I have typed about 3 or 4 detailed responses on this thread, then just given up and hit the back button. I'm tempted to just link to previous posts of mine, or blog entries or whatever. This feels so circular at this point.

― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 20 August 2012 14:13 (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

What is even more frustrating and circular is the presence of posts like this every page or two. Really - REALLY - I'm not trying to flame here, but please try and have patience. You've obviously thought about your position on this subject a lot, but sighing and rolling your eyes and moaning about certain turns of discussion is as tedious as you're making it out to be at best; and condescending to those you're speaking with at worst. Not everyone can be expected to intuit your specific thoughts and feelings on this (obviously fairly touchy/hot topic).

Dog Latin, you are aware that a few days, you were arguing that Metal was *not* defined by certain emotions (anger, aggression, etc.) And now today, you are arguing that the reason "women don't like metal" is because it is dominated by certain emotions (anger, aggression) which are so ~masculine~ that women don't ever, ever feel them?

1) Which is it? Metal is or is not dominated by anger and aggression? Make up your mind, please.

2) As to visceral anger and aggression being "masculine." You are aware that women can and *do* feel emotions of anger and aggression. In fact, given the levels of frustration inspired in me by this thread, I can assure you, as a woman, that rage and anger are a big, big part of females' experience.