Creedence Clearwater Revival vs the Grateful Dead vs the Band

I don't get why Coltrane is being used as a stand-in for the entire form of jazz here. Or why rock musicians were supposed to be not schooled in jazz.

lol, you wanna draw this out a little maybe?

feel free to school me on chronology but yeah as tyler pointed out a lot of dudes who started doing this in rock (Reed, McGuinn, the Doors, dunno about Hendrix) all cited the precedent for this practice in jazz and in many cases specifically Coltrane (granted Reed was more into Ornette, there's room for quibbling here)

like "Eight Miles High" and "Light My Fire" solos were both homages/directly inspired by Coltrane, no....? dunno if we can trace long-form improvisation in rock back much further than 1965, really.

yeah i feel like all those guys were heavy into jazz, and the exploratory solo thing came from that.....

shakes i think aero hates to admit his precious dead are just a bunch of shambling chumps in shorts compared to trane so he's being pedantic

the dead explicitly listened to coltrane to learn how to stretch their performances out, the byrds said eight miles high came out of africa/brass i think. and neil young has said that things like "cowgirl in the sand" came directly out of listening to coltrane. still not sure what we're arguing about exactly -- just that coltrane had a big influence on late 60s experimental rock? he did!

I like how the phrase "you guys" in an aero post is a marker: "warning, post contains world's gentlest scolding."

xps god damn it, aero loves john coltrane,

Eight Miles High isn't long! I mean sure, longform improvisation in rock obviously grew out jazz. But it's not like Coltrane was the only jazz musician guitar players were familiar with.

Guitar solos were already well established within rock well before that. So then the question is just how they got stretched out. But the main influence in rock music getting longer was arguably Like A Rolling Stone which really launched the to the trend of longer pop music.

And jazz doesn't even have a monopoly on long improvisation. Blues, indian music, or even bluegrass were also big influences on '60s rock.

joe perry has some pretty trane influenced moments on the new aerosmith record, it's true. dude cops a bit from kulu se mama reportedly!

wait *record scratch* BLUES was a big influence on 60s rock??!?

where is my suggest ban button xp @ how's life

Wait the Byrds were influenced by Coltrane??!?

wait *record scratch* BLUES was a big influence on 60s rock??!?

^^ this - I mean - drop acid and try to play a John Lee Hooker cover, the solo will take five times as long and just like that you're the Burrito Brothers

the dead's 'Spanish Jam' was inspired by Sketches of Spain, fwiw, and miles opened for the dead once and spoke reasonably highly of them (i think they showed him the proper respect, unlike the motherfuckin steve miller band).

Roger McGuinn - musicangle 2004

I think (in the 5D era) maybe we got too much flack for doing too many Dylan songs.

It was basically the fact that he (Gene Clark) was kinda fried. He was burned out and the fear of airplanes was just all of it coming to a head. He also had an ambitious streak, and he wanted to go off as a solo artist. Pickner and Dickson were grooming him to be the Elvis Presley. So, there was another sort of ...a sinister plot. It didn't work out.

We decided to stay with four. We talked to the Beatles and they said that they had had five guys and they liked being four better. We said if it was good enough for them, it was good enough for us.

He (Chris Hillman) was a little shy, but he grew into it. Over the years, he's really gotten good. He's a real melodic bass player.

Those ('Wild Mountain Thyme' and 'John Riley') were my arrangements.

It's ('I Come And Stand At Every Door') a Pete Seeger influence. I got it from a Pete Seeger record. He had always been an influence and an inspiration to me, and I thought I'd put it on there. Actually, Pete asked me where I got it, too.

That's ('I See You') an early sessions, bubblegum type of song. I did like the jazzy kind of feel to it.

I'd been playing around with that jazz, Coltrane type of influence. It kinda seeped into everything I did at that point.

xps to ua: I'm sorry, dude. I figured it would be low-key enough to slip that in.

I mean, East-West is supposedly one of the key innovators in that area right? So yeah, Coltrane + indian music + blues.

blues + jazz + bluegrass + weed + shankar + LSD + JFK BLOWN AWAY = Long guitar solos

^^ this - I mean - drop acid and try to play a John Lee Hooker cover, the solo will take five times as long and just like that you're the Burrito Brothers

okay I lol'd

sorry, not buying this whole "60s rock dudes were way into blues" theory of yours, gonna have to see a bit of hard evidence, mate

as tyler says, the main melody line of Eight Miles High is very clearly derived from 'India' by Coltrane. Again if memory serves, I think they heard it on a tape made by Brian Jones!

*drives car over cliff in amazement*

xpost to whichever post you prefer

Yeah, they said that the lead guitar on "Eight Miles High" was inspired by Coltrane's modal work, especially "India".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/soldonsong/songlibrary/eightmileshigh.shtml

xposts to wk

Oh ha, the point was made a couple of times now.

UMS, what's your point? you think anyone here doesn't know that McGuinn was influenced by Coltrane? But how exactly does that translate to " you can attribute the whole idea that you can have long solos in rock songs to 'Trane's influence"?

xposts

I mean, really what you're all saying is that the entire idea of long guitar solos in rock can be traced to the 3 minute long "eight miles high", right?

guys, the only person to have played a solo of any kind prior to the Byrds was John Coltrane, this is documented. after that, John Fogerty perfected the long solo, and then in the 80s, Steve Vai took it up a notch. this is not rocket science it's guitars

Ha, OK, I wasn't following the whole discussion, just jumping in when I saw a question. Nm, should stop that.

i guess what i'm saying is that guitars *actually stopped playing AUTOMATICALLY* once the soloist reached the end of a bar before coltrane invented a new guitar.

wait *record scratch* BLUES was a big influence on 60s rock??!?

― Jandek at the Disco (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, August 17, 2012 10:44 AM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Wait the Byrds were influenced by Coltrane??!?

― wk, Friday, August 17, 2012 10:45 AM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

wasn't a serious question

Yeah, I needed to read more of the thread to realize that.

I mean, really what you're all saying is that the entire idea of long guitar solos in rock can be traced to the 3 minute long "eight miles high", right?

being overly reductionist here. I cited other examples - the Velvets, the Doors, Hendrix - that started to stretch the format and after that the floodgates were opened.

and afaik, David Crosby also introduced Byrds/Beatles/LA crowd to Ravi Shankar's music via his connections at Liberty/World Pacific as a member of The Jet Set.

sorry, I didn't mean to get all worked up. got kind of annoyed that ums was giving me sass for having the nerve to mention the blues as if I thought I was dropping some kind of revelation there.

I don't even know why I'm arguing this. I'm totally fine with giving the Byrds credit for any and everything because they're the best.

I don't get why Coltrane is being used as a stand-in for the entire form of jazz here. Or why rock musicians were supposed to be not schooled in jazz.

i was just thinking of a comparison to people known for their improvising with healthy coverage of their live output in their catalogues who certainly were big enough to have put out / had put out by others a lot of it.

xxp the wiki entry on Byrds' 'Why' (recorded at the same time as 8 Miles High) has all the deets

these fucking new style poll thread rule, good work dudes

rules

they rule

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcJUuxv8oCE

People like Sandy Bull and Davey Graham should probably get a little credit too.

these fucking new style poll thread rule, good work dudes

― Mr. Que, Friday, August 17, 2012 1:00 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

rules

― Mr. Que, Friday, August 17, 2012 1:00 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

they rule

― Mr. Que, Friday, August 17, 2012 1:01 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

woah....trippy improvisation, very modal posting

wk,

i was just being sassy, i can't help it. i meant you no ill. :)

they

don't you ever sass the BLUES man

my knowledge of electric blues is for shit, but surely some of those dudes were playing long boring solos in the '50s right?

not really on record, afaik

I just wanted to point out that "Eight Miles High" was influenced by John Coltrane, as reported by Ravi Shankar on David Crosby's wiki page, has anyone mentioned this yet

like i always say, if shankar said it on wiki, that's good enough for me

Loling at image of Ravi Shankar editing David Crosby's wiki page