Creedence Clearwater Revival vs the Grateful Dead vs the Band

isn't this kind of the approach taken on anthem of the sun?

true. and see, it's some of their best stuff! too expensive though I guess.

It also would have taken too much time and money. Why actually make real records when you can just stay on the road nonstop and get your fans any and all live shit you put out? Pretty smart business.

― wk, Friday, 17 August 2012 16:31 (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this seems p unfair on a number of levels -- the glut of live recordings is from after they stopped existing for the most part, their early years didn't really have that many. and also hey a whole bunch of people wanted to hear them play, to have not played would have been a different kind of thing to bother people

is there even as much live miles or live coltrane available as there is live dead?

the glut of live recordings is from after they stopped existing for the most part, their early years didn't really have that many.

I don't know, during the Pigpen era they released 5 discs of studio material, and 5 discs of live material.

Actually I forgot to count Bear's Choice

is there even as much live miles or live coltrane available as there is live dead?

seriously doubt it

Tyler: I found it fascinating, also a little sad in how you see the way some of Weberman's friends, Dave Peel included, are living. Weberman himself is surprisingly engaging--based on what I knew about him I figured he'd be really creepy, but most of the time he's funny and reasonably self-aware. (Except for when he's saying things like how much he inspired Bruce Springsteen.) Also managed to download the Weberman-Dylan record this morning.

is there even as much live miles or live coltrane available as there is live dead?

seriously doubt it

i would think that says something. or are there people who think the dead are better improvisers in general?

jesus, I guess I can't count at all.
9 WB albums, 5 of them studio records and 4 of them live records. And the live records are 8 discs of material.

xps

i would think that says something. or are there people who think the dead are better improvisers in general?

it says the dead allowed people to tape their sets for years. miles and contraine didn't. (as far as i know)

is there even as much live miles or live coltrane available as there is live dead?

seriously doubt it

i would think that says something. or are there people who think the dead are better improvisers in general?

― j., Friday, August 17, 2012 12:05 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol @ these theoretical ppl so hard

i can't imagine miles ever being cool with people doing something with his music that didn't involve miles getting paid for it

^^^

and 'Trane only had, what, a decade of live playing or so? so much less source material there, even given how much he played.

what exactly are we arguing about re: the dead and miles/coltrane?

haha i don't know, i mean i don't even think the deadheads on this thread are insane enough to put them in miles/trane's league right?

i don't think so, i mean, it's a whole 'nother ball of something. it is kind of interesting to see coltrane's influence on the 60s psych scene, though. like all these garage rock/folk dudes who aren't really schooled in jazz whatsoever grappling with the pure energy/sound of trane.

kinda feel like you can attribute the whole idea that you can have long solos in rock songs to 'Trane's influence

i think it's true -- i know mcguinn, neil young, garcia, reed etc all were heavy into that stuff.

the dead are nowhere near miles/trane/probably any major jazz musician in improvisation, although I think at one point in the 80s jerry made a remark where he put himself in the same league with miles?

I may be wrong about that. I thought he said it somewhere in the same interview as this:

Q: What about outside of the band?

A: No, I don’t. There’s not a situation around that has both a loose enough structure and good-enough-quality musicians where I can get into it and enjoy it. The level of musicianship that I exist at right now, it’s not much fun to play unless the people play really well. You know what I mean? There aren’t too many situations where you can just jam with somebody.

coltrane is considerably less popular than the dead. also than britney spears. he plays jazz it's not really even the 5th most popular music in the world you guys.

kinda feel like you can attribute the whole idea that you can have long solos in rock songs to 'Trane's influence

lol, you wanna draw this out a little maybe?

this seems p unfair on a number of levels -- the glut of live recordings is from after they stopped existing for the most part, their early years didn't really have that many. and also hey a whole bunch of people wanted to hear them play, to have not played would have been a different kind of thing to bother people

Also I didn't mean that a dis so much, although it may have come across that way. Can were a small band who could hole away in their studio and do their thing. I don't think they toured extensively did they? The Dead on the other hand had a huge organization to support with tons of gear, engineers and techs, road crew, etc. A lot of that was probably a fixed cost. So on the road they're spending x amount per day but earning a profit over that. But then if the band takes two weeks to go into the studio, they're still spending that same amount but not earning anything. So from a strictly business point of view, live albums look very attractive.

Anthem of the Sun was a big fiasco with the label and then Aoxomoxoa cost even more. After that they released a double live album which sold well. Then they quickly did two simpler, more stripped-down studio albums, followed by 6 discs in a row of live material. If fewer people buy your live album but it's three discs so you make more money and it charts higher than your most popular studio album, that's a pretty appealing route to take. I guess they eased off of the live material after that though.

I don't get why Coltrane is being used as a stand-in for the entire form of jazz here. Or why rock musicians were supposed to be not schooled in jazz.

lol, you wanna draw this out a little maybe?

feel free to school me on chronology but yeah as tyler pointed out a lot of dudes who started doing this in rock (Reed, McGuinn, the Doors, dunno about Hendrix) all cited the precedent for this practice in jazz and in many cases specifically Coltrane (granted Reed was more into Ornette, there's room for quibbling here)

like "Eight Miles High" and "Light My Fire" solos were both homages/directly inspired by Coltrane, no....? dunno if we can trace long-form improvisation in rock back much further than 1965, really.

yeah i feel like all those guys were heavy into jazz, and the exploratory solo thing came from that.....

shakes i think aero hates to admit his precious dead are just a bunch of shambling chumps in shorts compared to trane so he's being pedantic

the dead explicitly listened to coltrane to learn how to stretch their performances out, the byrds said eight miles high came out of africa/brass i think. and neil young has said that things like "cowgirl in the sand" came directly out of listening to coltrane. still not sure what we're arguing about exactly -- just that coltrane had a big influence on late 60s experimental rock? he did!

I like how the phrase "you guys" in an aero post is a marker: "warning, post contains world's gentlest scolding."

xps god damn it, aero loves john coltrane,

Eight Miles High isn't long! I mean sure, longform improvisation in rock obviously grew out jazz. But it's not like Coltrane was the only jazz musician guitar players were familiar with.

Guitar solos were already well established within rock well before that. So then the question is just how they got stretched out. But the main influence in rock music getting longer was arguably Like A Rolling Stone which really launched the to the trend of longer pop music.

And jazz doesn't even have a monopoly on long improvisation. Blues, indian music, or even bluegrass were also big influences on '60s rock.

joe perry has some pretty trane influenced moments on the new aerosmith record, it's true. dude cops a bit from kulu se mama reportedly!

wait *record scratch* BLUES was a big influence on 60s rock??!?

where is my suggest ban button xp @ how's life

Wait the Byrds were influenced by Coltrane??!?

wait *record scratch* BLUES was a big influence on 60s rock??!?

^^ this - I mean - drop acid and try to play a John Lee Hooker cover, the solo will take five times as long and just like that you're the Burrito Brothers

the dead's 'Spanish Jam' was inspired by Sketches of Spain, fwiw, and miles opened for the dead once and spoke reasonably highly of them (i think they showed him the proper respect, unlike the motherfuckin steve miller band).

Roger McGuinn - musicangle 2004

I think (in the 5D era) maybe we got too much flack for doing too many Dylan songs.

It was basically the fact that he (Gene Clark) was kinda fried. He was burned out and the fear of airplanes was just all of it coming to a head. He also had an ambitious streak, and he wanted to go off as a solo artist. Pickner and Dickson were grooming him to be the Elvis Presley. So, there was another sort of ...a sinister plot. It didn't work out.

We decided to stay with four. We talked to the Beatles and they said that they had had five guys and they liked being four better. We said if it was good enough for them, it was good enough for us.

He (Chris Hillman) was a little shy, but he grew into it. Over the years, he's really gotten good. He's a real melodic bass player.

Those ('Wild Mountain Thyme' and 'John Riley') were my arrangements.

It's ('I Come And Stand At Every Door') a Pete Seeger influence. I got it from a Pete Seeger record. He had always been an influence and an inspiration to me, and I thought I'd put it on there. Actually, Pete asked me where I got it, too.

That's ('I See You') an early sessions, bubblegum type of song. I did like the jazzy kind of feel to it.

I'd been playing around with that jazz, Coltrane type of influence. It kinda seeped into everything I did at that point.

xps to ua: I'm sorry, dude. I figured it would be low-key enough to slip that in.

I mean, East-West is supposedly one of the key innovators in that area right? So yeah, Coltrane + indian music + blues.

blues + jazz + bluegrass + weed + shankar + LSD + JFK BLOWN AWAY = Long guitar solos

^^ this - I mean - drop acid and try to play a John Lee Hooker cover, the solo will take five times as long and just like that you're the Burrito Brothers

okay I lol'd

sorry, not buying this whole "60s rock dudes were way into blues" theory of yours, gonna have to see a bit of hard evidence, mate

as tyler says, the main melody line of Eight Miles High is very clearly derived from 'India' by Coltrane. Again if memory serves, I think they heard it on a tape made by Brian Jones!

*drives car over cliff in amazement*

xpost to whichever post you prefer

Yeah, they said that the lead guitar on "Eight Miles High" was inspired by Coltrane's modal work, especially "India".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/soldonsong/songlibrary/eightmileshigh.shtml

xposts to wk

Oh ha, the point was made a couple of times now.

UMS, what's your point? you think anyone here doesn't know that McGuinn was influenced by Coltrane? But how exactly does that translate to " you can attribute the whole idea that you can have long solos in rock songs to 'Trane's influence"?

xposts