Bolt the door, Varg is loose!

well some of the shit you listen to is lolsome to me too ;-)

if we start boycotting every racist in america we end up w/ a resegregated societty

it's only by engaging w/ the racists and drawing them in that we change society

ie ICP dan

anyway as a middle easterner i'm sure breivik and varg would be gunning for me before you j0hn so it's not like this convo is academic to me

dan u haven't heard "If You Can't Lick 'Em...Lick 'Em" or "Love Grenade"??....man u haven't lived :(

a completely incoherent argument you're presenting there late great - whose sole purpose seems to be the shirk ing of moral responsibilities. "engaging" them lol. DON'T BUY SHIT BY NAZIS IS REALLY FUCKING EASY PROPOSITION TO UNDERSTAND AND DOES NOT, TO ANY EVEN REMOTELY SENSIBLE MIND, lead to "oh but can I eat at McDonald's?"

I mean, we're talking about shit you have to ACTIVELY SEEK OUT in order to hear it, so the "where do you draw the line?" question has a pretty easy answer: "don't actively seek this shit out"

also you realize I haven't bought or actively sought out anything recorded by ICP in over a decade, right

"if you say I can't give money to an actual nazi...I don't know man...free speech"

i don't think that mustaine and nugent are comparable, though i don't have much time for either.

varg's an influential "thinker" who's advocating racial violence in a europe that's increasingly consumed by such. i don't object to his music because he has shitty ideas. i reject his music because he's working hard to give his shitty ideas real political power and legitimacy in the world, and his music is part of that. and because lots of other people are both helping him and following his lead. his music is part of that, too.

people are getting hurt and killed in the here and now because of things said and ideas spread by people like varg vikernes. he's an active force for evil in the world. if mustaine and nugent were out there advocating racist genocide, i'd feel exactly the same way about them (admit that it wouldn't surprise me from mustaine at this point).

tbh, i don't think you can enjoy his music without furthering his agenda. unless, maybe, you steal it and never say anything positive about it to anyone. i believe that where burzum is concerned, ignoring and condemning are the only appropriate responses, even if you do legitimately dig the music.

but where do you draw the line contenderizer? money is the root of all evil...so if I spend money...I'm evil...so therefore giving it to nazis...same thing

wait wait wait we are not talking about Listening To Burzum (which is obviously OK, christ), we are talking about buying/making and wearing a Burzum t-shirt

well, as a brown person i make the choices i make and y'all white people have to live with it

i think dr king was right when he said we boycott the bus and sit-in at the lunch counter but we don't have to boycott or sit-in or break windows at every cracker business in town

also j0hn i don't appreciate you yelling at me about racism

("we are not" I mean we were not)

i would assume 99% of people don't read a burzum shirt as "i endorse white power" but rather as "i endorse extreme hipster metal" so i think it's funny we're bending over backward to inject a level of holier-than-thou moral outrage here

aero otm. what you're articulating is nothing more than indifference, the late great. like: since we can't be perfect, any moral stance we do take is either arbitrary or hypocritical. i don't accept that. because we can't be perfect, the moral stances we do take are all the more important. giving your "entertainment dollars" to someone that you know will take your money and use it to promulgate race war is fucked up no matter how you slice it. if you want to insist that it's the same as eating at mcdonalds, buying nikes and listening to megadeth, then fine. don't do any of that shit either. personally, i see a difference.

nah it's not indifference, it's loving the racist and making him part of your world, but you guys don't get that since you're godless americans

some jiminy crickit motherfuckers in this thread, tanks a lot

i'm peaceing on white people lecturing me on racism, btw, dan gets a pass

i think dr king was right when he said we boycott the bus and sit-in at the lunch counter but we don't have to boycott or sit-in or break windows at every cracker business in town

He didn't say we shouldn't boycott every cracker business in town, though, which is the argument you're making

he did

to be fair i think at this point when you buy a burzum record you are mostly paying to rebuild stave churches actually

that was a lot of xposts

xp that's the difference between a great man and a prof griff imo

this presupposes that you have to give a red cent of money to listen to burzum

100000xposts

that's true too!

extreme lols at "this is badly produced" upthread

this presupposes that you have to give a red cent of money to listen to burzum

p sure we did this one either upthread or on another burzum thread

like yes, ultimately it's up to you what you want to listen to and to whom you want to give your money, but the statement made by a person of color digging Burzum and wearing a t-shirt is not going to be interpreted the same way as the statement made by a white person digging Burzum and wearing a t-shirt, and it seems super naive to me to not recognize that

I'm also completely okay with marginalizing and disenfranchising people who hate me for no fucking reason.

i don't even listen to or enjoy burzum btw but i will defend your right to listen to burzum the death

lots of x-posts

tbh, i don't think you can enjoy his music without furthering his agenda. unless, maybe, you steal it and never say anything positive about it to anyone. i believe that where burzum is concerned, ignoring and condemning are the only appropriate responses, even if you do legitimately dig the music.

― contenderizer, Thursday, August 16, 2012 5:26 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I choose not to give Varg Vikernes that kind of power over me. I myself get to decide what his music means to me, don't I?

i would assume 99% of people don't read a burzum shirt as "i endorse white power" but rather as "i endorse extreme hipster metal" so i think it's funny we're bending over backward to inject a level of holier-than-thou moral outrage here

― the late great, Thursday, August 16, 2012 2:31 PM (10 seconds ago)

i don't have the slightest idea where you're coming from here. according to you, my rejection of the popular art of a self-proclaimed and influential "philosopher" who explicitly endorses racist murder - at a time when hate crimes are spiraling out of control in europe - is simply an attempt to "inject a level of holier-than-thou moral outrage" into the conversation. with all due respect, i'm allowed to have and express a moral conscience. i'm allowed to see a direct relationship between varg's words, his music, and violence in the real world. no offense...

I choose not to give Varg Vikernes that kind of power over me. I myself get to decide what his music means to me, don't I?

yeah, sure. i'm just describing my stance.

i don't even listen to or enjoy burzum btw but i will defend your right to listen to burzum the death

I will theoretically defend your legal right to do so; you are, however, an asshole if you gloss over racist garbage in the service of your own pleasure. my Asian son, by the way, as sure a target of Varg's trash as yourself, joins me in a double gasface.

haha by "my own pleasure" i'm assuming you don't mean ME, also i thought "my asian son" was directed at me too

i don't think a dude in brooklyn wearing a burzum shirt causes hate crimes in europe fyi so that's where we agree to disagree on direct relationships

http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/consumer/factsheets/butterflies/icons/butterfly.jpg

thats us contendo :-)

lol did you search for a white monarch butterfly or was that happenstance

lool, happenstance (but there is no such thing as coincidence)

also i thought "my asian son" was directed at me too

lol even by my usual standards of arrogance this would be a bridge too far

I admit I read that post and was all "woah aero dial it back- oh phew"

ahhahahaha

nah it would be all good ;)

i think that part of my take on this is that if you have an interest/liking in aggro/heavier/extreme whatever music, you are prob crossing paths with some people with pretty hateful views, and just not knowing it really - i mean theres a lot of industrial culture shit with strong crypto-facist stuff going on, and in fact far greater lyrical problematic moments (boyd rice/non/foetus/a mess of bulgarian weirdos) in the name of character or art terror or whatever. i mean shit, boring old mainstream metallers slayer have angel of death in the catalog, and whatshishead had a signature guitar designed with ss bolt fret markers until the company wised up just before production. shock impulse stuff is going to tread on the dark side of fascist creepy and serial killer fetishizing and all manner of shit that i certainly dont like, so i think that the odds are that if you dig black metal or industrial or hardcore etc you are throwing money into the pockets of some pretty horrible people, you just arent aware of it.

xpost hahaha i was thinking that for a second too

i think the misogyny aspect in that stuff is more offensive than the racism, just barely obv, but fwiw. we could add swans and tg to the list too!

TG is an interesting case of the explicitly antifascist band that also actively gives money to nazi in order to accomplish their, uh, craft

and thats not to say that deciding not to give money to varg is a bad thing, but idk if you get any moral high ground for just avoiding the big flashing neon sign of "oh shit this dude is definitely a racist, brb gotta go order that Arcturus album"

j your point's well taken but the thing is: with Burzum, we have an unambiguous case. we know that if you wear a Burzum shirt, you're wearing a nazi shirt. For sure we know that!

well...theres not a lot of wiggle room for hellhammer either

i think that part of my take on this is that if you have an interest/liking in aggro/heavier/extreme whatever music, you are prob crossing paths with some people with pretty hateful views, and just not knowing it really

fwiw this is one of the reasons why I let you dig into aggro heavy extreme stuff and then tell me about it later, rather than exploring it myself

ah c'mon late great, there's gotta be a part of you that gets at least a little skeeved out knowing this dude you're talking about and a fair chunk of his fans want you dead because of your skin color. just imagine them thinking about people like you, your family, your culture, in giant mass graves of bodies piled up. people who take these ideas too seriously going to churches, mosques, and shooting dozens of people you share a heritage with, all because of horribly misguided ideas that are attached to music. at least you can say, "shit's kinda fucked up." what's to stop a skinhead from blasting you in the back of the head, except chance? the ideas ... are out there.