Nominations for an 80s Albums That Rock Poll(inc indie/Alt,punk,metal,heavy/glam etc) CLOSES SUNDAY NIGHT 11:59 p.m. UK

80% of the postmortem conveniently written already:

The concept of a 'Taste Vocabulary' - unread

hah.

Can we have more nominations please? No point in opening voting until the electronic poll voting has stopped as it would be unfair on them incase people want to vote in both

Assuming there is enough people interested in voting?

you may need to make an official pronouncement vigorously disputing the notion that the poll is sorry sack of death. also, while I don't feel that your aesthetic parameters are particularly oddball, have you considered letting people nominate literally any 80s album they think rocks, leaving it to the voters to sort? or, otoh, actually making the poll narrower (eg metal/punk/noise rock)? just my .02.

no

just to be clear, I like the general idea of the poll (and was also just making a bad joke about the poll's limbo status). also, pop is obv the main focus of ILM, and I understand wanting to stick w/a rock poll. other people seem v. confused by the criteria, tho, and I threw those ideas out there to address that. nbd

yeah I know its cool. Nominations are always a bit slow until theres an end date.
Thread does need to have chat though to keep it on SNA so people are reminded.

I don't really see any place for someone like me in this poll. I listen to rock. I'd say there was a point in my life when I listened to MOSTLY rock. However, a bunch of the college rock shit I'd nominate has already been nominated and there's not much point in nominating hair metal that no one will vote for besides me and maybe two or three other people.

Of course, I'd consider Siouxsie to be a rock band (if you've only ever heard "Peek A Boo" or whatever, I'd understand your inclination to say no). And Pretenders (especially album #1). And Bryan Adams's Reckless, which was one of 1984's best mainstream rock albums.

But this was never really a poll about rock music. It was a poll about was AG considers rock music. Instead, I think we should all show up at his house and letter-grade his cd collection.

no it isn't. its about a different poll from the usual already been done 80s rock poll that Rolling Stone likes to do

bump

ok i guess now the electronic poll is underway then this is the last week for nominations.

perhaps a kindly mod would add nominations close sunday night to the title?

But this was never really a poll about rock music. It was a poll about was AG considers rock music. Instead, I think we should all show up at his house and letter-grade his cd collection.

― Johnny Fever, Friday, August 17, 2012 11:50 PM (3 days ago)

the way the poll is framed might seem a bit clunky like 'rock' vs 'music that rocks' or whatever, but it makes sense if you think in terms of spirit rather than genre

there is enough of an envelope to cover most of this stuff (except the pop end metal)

it was a protean age when the lines between genres weren't quite so blurred, but there was a definite sort of harshness, an irrationalism, a dyonysian trend that you can trace through the young gods to live skull to early sonic youth to spacemen 3 to napalm death and so forth

to that extent, it is correct to exclude music which is not a part of that tendency

I tried adding "noms close" info to the thread title, but the title is already so long I just get an error message. If you write a thread title that gets closing date into the current number of characters, I can make the edit.

think some sort of brevity might be in order

PFUNKBOY IN ROCKPOLL NOMS CLOSE SHOCKAH

How about shortening it just to
Nominations for an 80s Albums That Rock Poll(inc indie/Alt,punk,metal,heavy/glam etc) CLOSES SUNDAY NIGHT MIDNIGHT UK?

Thanks

it was a protean age when the lines between genres weren't quite so blurred, but there was a definite sort of harshness, an irrationalism, a dyonysian trend that you can trace through the young gods to live skull to early sonic youth to spacemen 3 to napalm death and so forth

to that extent, it is correct to exclude music which is not a part of that tendency

He took the words right outta my mouth..

there is enough of an envelope to cover most of this stuff (except the pop end metal)

it was a protean age when the lines between genres weren't quite so blurred, but there was a definite sort of harshness, an irrationalism, a dyonysian trend that you can trace through the young gods to live skull to early sonic youth to spacemen 3 to napalm death and so forth

to that extent, it is correct to exclude music which is not a part of that tendency

"Except[ing] the pop end of metal" kind of weakens this, though, since it is included. (I would also query the exclusion of stuff like Run DMC and Beastie Boys, given some of the things that are included.)

no i don't think run dmc and beasties really fit here at all

the pop metal stuff....i think you have to include gnr in this somehow, if only as the sort of negative-image, and because when you disregard narcissism of smallish differences there are definite similarities with jane's addiction, who certainly belong here

the rest of the glam stuff i wouldn't include but i don't really care, and i don't think that stuff is going to be that highly represented in the results

Thanks WmC

there is also something dialectical and hilarious about including these two, and excluding REM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alKM2Y1XxWU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0eVTeQi06c

R.E.M. are more rational and less Dionysian because Peter Buck played a Rickenbacker.

peter buck reserves his dionysian side for scraps with airline staff

tim quit trolling and positively contribute by nominating albums that fit the criteria

450 Albums Nominated so far

AC/DC - Back in Black
Adolescents - Adolescents
Aerosmith - Pump
Agent Orange - Living in Darkness
Anthrax - Among The Living
Appliances-SFB - SFB
Appliances-SFB - SFB
Avengers - Avengers
Bad Brains - Bad Brains
Bad Brains - I Against I
Bad Brains - s/t
Bad Religion - Suffer
Band of Susans - Love Agenda
Band of Susans- Hope Against Hope
Bastro - Diablo Guapo
Bathory - Under The Sign Of The Black Mark
Bauhaus - Burning From The Inside
Bauhaus - In The Flat Field
Bauhaus - Mask
Bauhaus - The Sky'S Gone Out
Big Black - Atomizer
Big Black - Songs About Fucking
Big Boys/Dicks - Recorded Live at Raul's Club
Big Boys/Dicks - Recorded Live at Raul's Club
Billy Idol - Rebel Yell
Birthday Party - Junkyard
Bitch Magnet - Umber
Black Flag - Damaged
Black Flag - In My Head
Black Flag - Jealous Again
Black Flag - My War
Black Flag - Slip It In
Black Sabbath - Heaven And Hell
Black Sabbath - Mob Rules
Blind Idiot God - s/t
Blind Idiot God - Undertow
Blue Oyster Cult - Cultosaurus Erectus
Bon Jovi - Slippery When Wet
Boredoms - Soul Discharge
Butthole Surfers - A Brown Reason To Live
Butthole Surfers - Hairway to Steven
Butthole Surfers - Locust Abortion Technician
Butthole Surfers - Psychic... Powerless... Another Man'S Sac
Butthole Surfers - Rembrandt Pussyhorse
Candlemass - Epicus Doomicus Metallicus
Candlemass -Nightfall
Capt Beefheart - Doc at the Radar Station
Capt Beefheart - Ice Cream for Crow
Carcass - Symphonies of Sickness
Celibate Rifles - The Turgid Miasma of Existence
Celtic Frost - Into the Pandemonium
Celtic Frost - Morbid Tales
Celtic Frost - To Mega Therion
Cheap Trick - One On One
Christian Death - Only Theatre of Pain
Chrome - Blood on the Moon
Chrome - Red Exposure
Chrome - Third From the Sun
Circle Jerks - Group Sex
Condemned to Death - Diary of a Love Monster
Condemned to Death - Diary of a Love Monster
Cop Shoot Cop - Headkick Facsimile
Coroner - No More Color
Coroner - Punishment for Decadence
Coroner - R.I.P.
Corrosion of Conformity - Animosity
Cosmic Psychos - Go the Hack
Couch Potatoes - Curiosity Rocks
Couch Potatoes - Curiosity Rocks
cows - daddy has a tail
Cramps - Psychedelic Jungle
Cramps - Smell Of Female
Cramps - Songs The Lord Taught Us
Crash Course in Science - Signals from Pier 13
crass - christ - the album
Crass - Penis Envy
Crass - Yes Sir I Will
Cro-Mags - Best Wishes
Cro-Mags - The Age of Quarrel
Cryptic Slaughter - Money Talks
D.R.I. - Crossover
D.R.I. - Dealing With It
DAF - Die Kleinen und die Bosen
Dark Angel - Darkness Descends
Das Damen - Mousetrap
Das Damen - Triskaidekaphobe
Dead Kennedys - Fresh Fruit For Rotten Vegetables
Dead Milkmen - Beelzebubba
Death - Leprosy
Death - Scream Bloody Gore
Death Angel - The Ultra-Violence
Death in June - Brown Book
Death in June - The Guilty Have No Pride
Def Leppard - Hysteria
Def Leppard - On Through the Night
Def Leppard - Pyromania
Descendents - I Don't Want to Grow Up
Descendents - I Don't Want to Grow Up
Descendents - Milo Goes To College
Descendents - Milo Goes To College
Diamond Head - Lightning to the Nations
Didjits - Hey Judester
Die Kreuzen - S/T
Dinosaur - S/T
Dinosaur Jr - Bug
Dinosaur Jr - You're Living All Over Me
Dio - Holy Diver
Dio - Last In Line
Discharge - Hear Nothing, See Nothing, Say Nothing
DNA - A Taste of DNA
Dog Faced Hermans - Humans Fly
Dogs D'Amour - In the Dynamite Jet Saloon
Dream Syndicate - The Days of Wine and Roses
Drunks with Guns - Drunks with Guns
Dwarves - Horror Stories
Dwarves - Tooling for a Warm Teabag
Einsturzende Neubauten - Drawings Of Ot
Einsturzende Neubauten - Fuenf Auf Der Nach Oben Offenen Richterskala
Einsturzende Neubauten - Halber Mensch
Einsturzende Neubauten – Haus der Lüge
Einsturzende Neubauten - Kollaps
Electro Hippies - The Only Good Punk... Is A Dead One
Embrace - Embrace
English Dogs - Forward Into Battle
Exciter - Long Live the Loud
Exodus - Bonded By Blood
Exodus - Fabulous Disaster
Extreme Noise Terror - A Holocaust in Your Head
F/i - Out of Space & Out of Time
F/I - Space Mantra
Faith No More - Introduce Yourself
Faith No More - The Real Thing
Fear - The Record
Fire Party - s/t
fIREHOSE - Ragin', Full On
Fishbone - Truth and Soul
Flesheaters - A Minute To Pray A Second To Die
Flipper - Generic Flipper
Foetus Interruptus - Thaw
Fugazi - Fugazi
Fugazi - Margin Walker
Fushitsusha - Live I
Game Theory - Big Shot Chronicles
George Thorogood & The Destroyers - Bad to the Bone
Girl Trouble - Hit It or Quit It
Girlschool - Demolition
Glenn Branca - Lesson No. 1
Glenn Branca - The Ascension
Godflesh - Streetcleaner
Gore - Mean Man’s Dream
Grong Grong - S/T
Guess Papers - We Got 'Em
Guns N' Roses - Appetite For Destruction
Halo of Flies - Garbageburn
Halo Of Flies - Singles Going Nowhere
Hanoi Rocks - Bangkok Shocks, Saigon Shakes, Hanoi Rocks
Head Of David - Dustbowl
Head Of David - Head Of David
Helios Creed - Superior Catholic Finger
Helios Creed - The Last Laugh
Husker Du - Candy Apple Grey
Husker Du - Flip Your Wig
Husker Du - Metal Circus
Husker Du - New day Rising
Husker Du - Zen Arcade
Icons of Filth - Onward Christian Soldiers
Icons of Filth - Onward Christian Soldiers
Iggy Pop - Instinct
Ike Yard - s/t
Iron Maiden - Killers
Iron Maiden - Number Of The Beast
Iron Maiden - Piece of Mind
Iron Maiden - Powerslave
Iron Maiden - s/t
Jane's Addiction - Nothing's Shocking
Jim Carroll Band - Catholic Boy
Jim Carroll Band - Catholic Boy
Joan Jett - Bad reputation
Jon Wayne - Texas Funeral
Journey - Departure
Journey - Escape
Judas Priest - British Steel
Judas Priest - Defenders of the Faith
Judas Priest - Screaming For Vengeance
Killdozer - Intellectuals Are The Shoeshine Boys Of The Ruling Elite
Killdozer - Snake Boy
Killing Joke - Killing Joke
Killing Joke - Night Time
Killing Joke - What's THIS For...!
Kilslug - Answer The Call
King Crimson - Discipline
King Diamond - Abigail
Kix - Blow My Fuse
Kix - s/t
Kreator - Pleasure To Kill
Last Exit - Köln
Lazy Cowgirls - Tapping the Source
Lemonheads - Hate Your Friends
Lime Spiders - Headcleaner
Lita Ford - Out For Blood
Live Skull - Bringing Home The Bait
Live Skull - Cloud One
Live Skull - Don't Get Any on You
Live Skull - Dusted
Live Skull - S/T
Living Colour - Vivid
Loop - Black Sun
Loop - The World in Your Eyes
Loop: - Fade Out
Loverboy - Get Lucky
Lubricated Goat - Paddock Of Love
Lyres - Lyres Lyres
Macabre - Gloom
Manilla Road - Crystal Logic
Manilla Road - The Deluge
Manowar - Fighting The World
Manowar - Sign of the Hammer
Mars - 78
Massacre - Killing Time
Masters Of Reality- Masters Of Reality
Mayhem - Deathcrush
Meat Puppets- II
Megadeth - Killing Is My Business... and Business Is Good!
Megadeth - Peace Sells...But Who's Buying?
Megadeth - So Far, So Good... So What
Melvins - Gluey Porch Treatments
Melvins - Ozma
Mercyful Fate - Melissa
Metallica - ...And Justice For All
Metallica - Kill 'Em All
Metallica - Master of Puppets
Metallica - Ride The Lightning
Ministry - The Land of Rape and Honey
Ministry - The Mind Is A Terrible Thing To Taste
Ministry - Twitch
Minor Threat - Minor Threat
Minor Threat - out of step
Minutemen – Double Nickels on the Dime
Minutemen - The Punch Line
Minutemen - What Makes a Man Start Fires?
Misfits - Beware
Misfits - Earth Ad
Misfits - Legacy Of Brutality
Mission of Burma - Signals, Calls, and Marches
Mission of Burma - Vs.
Monster Magnet - Forget About Life I'M High On Dope
Morbid Angel - Altars Of Madness
Motley Crue - Dr. Feelgood
Motley Crue - Shout At The Devil
Motley Crue - Too Fast For Love
Motorhead - Ace of Spades
Motorhead - Another Perfect Day
Motorhead - Orgasmatron
Mudhoney - Superfuzz Bigmuff
MX-80 Sound - Out Of The Tunnel
My Bloody Valentine - Isn't Anything
N.W.A. - Straight Outta Compton
Naked City - Naked City
Naked Raygun - Jettison
Naked Raygun - Throb Throb
Napalm Death - From Enslavement To Obliteration
Napalm Death - Scum
Neil Young & Crazy Horse - Re*Ac*Tor
Neurosis - Pain of Mind
New Model Army - No Rest for the Wicked
Nick Cave + The Bad Seeds - Firstborn Is Dead
Nick Cave + the Bad Seeds - From Her to Eternity
Nick Cave + The Bad Seeds - Your Funeral, My Trial
Nine Inch Nails - Pretty Hate Machine
Nirvana - Bleach
Nitzer Ebb - Showtime
No Trend ‎– When Death Won'T Solve Your Problem
NoMeansNo - Wrong
Obituary - Slowly We Rot
Operation Ivy - Energy
Pagans - Buried Alive
Pantera - Power Metal
Paul Chain - Violet Art Of Improvisation
Paul Chain Violet Theatre - Detaching From Satan EP
pil - flowers of romance
Pixies - Come On Pilgrim
Pixies - Doolittle
Pixies - Surfer Rosa
Plasmatics - Beyond the Valley of 1984
Plasmatics - Beyond the Valley of 1984
plugz - better luck
Poison - Open Up And Say...Ahhh!
Poison Idea - Kings of Punk
Pop Group - For How Much Longer Do We Tolerate Mass Murder
Possessed - Seven Churches
Primus - Suck On This
Prong - Force Fed
Prong - Primitive Origins
Psychedelic Furs - Talk Talk Talk
Psychic TV - A Pagan Day
Psychic TV - Mouth of the Night
Pussy Galore - Dial 'M' for Motherfucker
Pussy Galore - Sugarshit Sharp
Queensryche - Operation: Mindcrime
Raging Slab - Raging Slab
Ramones - End of the Century
Rapeman - Two Nuns and a Pack Mule
Raw Power - Screams From the Gutter
Red Hot Chili Peppers - Freaky Styley
Red Hot Chili Peppers - Mothers Milk
Red Hot Chili Peppers - Uplift Mofo Party Plan
Redd Kross - Neurotica
Replacements - Let It Be
Replacements - Sorry Ma, Forgot To Take Out The Trash
Repulsion - Horrified
Rhys Chatham - Die Donnergotter
Rites Of Spring - End on End
Royal Trux - Royal Trux
Rudimentary Peni - Death Church
Rudimentary Peni - Death Church
Rush - Moving Pictures
Saccharine Trust - Pagan Icons
Saccharine Trust-Surviving You, Always
Saint Vitus - Born Too Late
Saint Vitus - Saint Vitus
Saint Vitus - V
Scientists - This Heart Doesn'T Run On Blood, This Heart Doesn'T Run On Love
Scientists - Weird Love
Scorpions - Love At First Sting
Scraping Foetus Off The Wheel - Hole
Scraping Foetus Off The Wheel – Nail
Scratch Acid - Just Keep Eating
Scratch Acid - s/t
Screaming Trees - Buzz Factory
Screaming Trees - Even If & Especially When
Septic Death - Now That I Have the Attention, What Do I Do with It?
Sepultura - Beneath the Remains
Sisters Of Mercy - First And Last And Always
Sisters of Mercy - Floodland
Skid Row - Skid Row
Skinny Puppy - Cleanse Fold And Manipulate
Skinny Puppy - Mind: The Perpetual Intercourse
Skinny Puppy - VIVIsectVI
Skullflower - Form Destroyer
Slayer - Hell Awaits
Slayer - Reign in Blood
Slayer - South Of Heaven
Slint - Tweez
Slovenly - We Shoot For the Moon
Snakefinger - Greener Postures
Snatches of Pink - Dead Men
Social Distortion - Mommy's Little Monster
Social Distortion - Prison Bound
Sodom - Agent Orange
Sonic Youth - Confusion Is Sex
Sonic Youth - Evol
Sonic Youth - Sister
Sonny Sharrock - Guitar
Sore Throat - Death to Capitalist Hardcore
Soul Asylum - Hang Time
Soundgarden - Louder Than Love
Soundgarden - Ultra Mega OK
Spacemen 3 - Playing With Fire
Spacemen 3 - Sound of Confusion
Spacemen 3 - The Perfect Prescription
SPK - Auto-Da-Fe
SPK - Auto-Da-Fe
Squirrel Bait - Skag Heaven
Squirrel Bait - Squirrel Bait
Steve Jones - Fire and Gasoline
Stormtroopers of Death - Speak English or Die
Suicidal Tendencies - S/T
Suicide - Half Alive
Swans - Children Of God
Swans - Cop
Swans - Filth
Swans - Public Castration Is A Good Idea
Swans - S/T
Swans - Young God
Terrorizer - World Downfall
Test Dept. - Ecstacy Under Duress
Testament - The Legacy
Testament - The New Order
The Birthday Party - Prayers on Fire
The Crucifucks - s/t
The Crucifucks - s/t
The Cult - Electric
The Cult - Love
The Cynics - Blue Train Station
the ex - 1936 spanish revolution
The Fall - Hex Enduction Houir
The Fall - Perverted by Language
The Fall - This Nation's Saving Grace
The Fluid - Clear Black Paper
The Fuzztones - Lysergic Emanations
The Gories - House Rockin'
The Gun Club - Fire of Love
The Gun Club - The Las Vegas Story
The Jesus And Mary Chain - Automatic
The Jesus And Mary Chain - Psychocandy
The Jesus Lizard - Pure
The Left - Hell It's the Earth
The Left - Hell It's the Earth
The Lords of the New Church - The Method to Our Madness
The Meatmen - We're The Meatmen...and You Suck!!
The Misfits - Walk Among Us
The Nomads - Outburst
The Primitives - Lazy 86-88
The Ramones - Pleasant Dreams
The Scientists - Blood Red River
The Screaming Blue Messiahs - Gunshy
The Screaming Blue Messiahs - Totally Religious
The Sound -Jeopardy
The Telescopes - Taste
The Wedding Present - Bizarro
Thee Mighty Caesars - English Punk Rock Explosion
Thin Lizzy - Thunder and Lightning
Thin White Rope - Moonhead
This Heat - Deceit
Three Johns - Atom Drum Bop
Throwing Muses - s/t
Throwing Muses - The Real Ramona
Tin Machine - Tin Machine
Trouble - Psalm 9
TSOL - Change Today?
Twisted Sister - Stay Hungry
Union Carbide Productions - In the Air Tonight
Ut - Conviction
Van Halen - 1984
Van Halen - Women and Children First
Venom - Possessed
Venom - Welcome to Hell
Void/Faith Split LP
Voivod - Dimension Hatross
Voivod - Killing Technology
Voivod - Nothingface
Warrant - Dirty Rotten Filthy Stinking Rich
WASP - WASP
Whitesnake - Slip of the Tongue
Whitesnake - Whitesnake
Wipers - Is This Real
Wipers - Over The Edge
Wipers - Youth Of America
Witchfinder General - Death Penalty
Wolfhounds - Bright & Guilty
X - Los Angeles
X - Wild Gift
Y&T - Open Fire
Yes - Big Generator
Yes - Drama
Young Gods - L'eau Rouge
Young Gods - s/t
Zero Boys - Vicious Circle
Zoogz Rift - Amputees in Limbo
ZZ Top - Eliminator

oh wait theres a few doubles there. Will fix up spreadsheet

Noone seems in favour of keeping the popmetal

thoughts?

the rest of the glam stuff i wouldn't include

Why, though? Because pop invades too much?

I'm not sure equating "harshness" with "absence of pop" is something that holds up. Are the Pixies harsher than R.E.M. because they were less pop? It seems to me that they are included, then, merely because they might have been less committed to pop (and not necessarily more committed to anything else).

xp

personally ive no problem with it being included even though i wont be voting for it.

pixies were more pop than rem, also more corrosive, more interesting &c &c

i) I don't think it's fair to say that Tim is trolling! The points he's making seem fair to me.

ii) I don't think there's any way in which the Pixies were more pop than REM.

i) I don't think it's fair to say that Tim is trolling! The points he's making seem fair to me.

Like, "rational" and "Dionysian" seem like pretty vague and subjective terms for what we're talking about. I've never thought of Flowers of Romance (or even Ragin' Full On, which I nominated, or the Rush albums) as "Dionysian".

oh come on his comments about rickenbackers that he repeats is trolling

'Are the Pixies harsher than R.E.M. because they were less pop?' is prima facie a stupid question

oh come on flowers of romance is dionysian as fuck

(Yet, weirdly, I kind of like including pop metal in an "80s music that rocks" poll! It does seem to complicate the definitions though, from an objective pov.)

xposts

i don't think it complicates definitions at all unless you labour under the misapprehension that there is some concrete and obtainable taxonomy of all god's musics

Who wants pop metal out?
Who wants pop metal kept in?

Taste shouldn't be part of your decision.

leave it in now

Y'all are some of the most pedantic motherfuckers I've ever encountered in my life.

I'm not even participating in this anymore. Just observing from outside like looking at an ant farm.

Hm, well, sorry if I was being pedantic. I didn't make the rules and was kind of curious about people's explanations for and arguments about them.

this coming from the dude who was going on about bruce springsteen upthread xp

Just observing from outside like looking at an ant farm.

― Johnny Fever, Monday, August 20, 2012 6:02 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

that would be.....an ALIEN ant farm

(johnny are you ok, are you ok johnny?)

it's not really a farm though - more like a handful of ants people get to react by poking at them with a stick.

'Are the Pixies harsher than R.E.M. because they were less pop?' is prima facie a stupid question

― A.R.R.Y. Kane (nakhchivan), Monday, August 20, 2012 9:54 AM (8 minutes ago)

I wasn't asking the question. I was trying to frame things that were included/excluded based on your definition of the parameters. "Harshness" was the only quality that seemed like it might have some conceivable application in the case of Pixies/R.E.M. (rational and Dionysian did not seem to).

If indeed "harshness" is the determining factor, then it seemed to me that this it is, precisely, the absence of pop that makes it so. You claim the Pixies were more "corrosive" - I don't know if I agree.

I may have said something about Springsteen not being eligible, but I never really lobbied on his behalf. My main beef with this whole endeavor is that the nominating process should be a time of inclusion (we all pretty much know what rock sounds like when we hear it, right?). Voting will be the time when things get excluded. If people disagree with your choices, that will all come out in the voting and no one has to chastise anyone else needlessly. AG's polls create some of the most dysfunction lines of thinking I've ever seen on ILM.

i don't really give a fuck what is or isn't included in the sense of special pleading for this or that music in some poll on the internet

it can be interesting to argue these definitions though, and i don't think tim or sund4r are being /pedantic/ in that sense at all

I wasn't asking the question. I was trying to frame things that were included/excluded based on your definition of the parameters. "Harshness" was the only quality that seemed like it might have some conceivable application in the case of Pixies/R.E.M. (rational and Dionysian did not seem to).

If indeed "harshness" is the determining factor, then it seemed to me that this it is, precisely, the absence of pop that makes it so. You claim the Pixies were more "corrosive" - I don't know if I agree.

― timellison, Monday, August 20, 2012 6:09 PM (5 minutes ago)

then harshness is the apt descriptor

pixies are clearly at the user friendly end of my spectrum there, so it is to be expected that they don't exemplify it as much as say, swans do

it can be interesting maddening to argue these definitions though