Rush vs Yes vs Zappa

"Dog Breath" is one of those Zappa songs ("Duke Of Prunes" is another) with ridiculous lyrics atop a beautiful melody line, but "altered vocals and offbeat instrumentation" is so much part and parcel of his M.O. in this era that I love it regardless. The Residents fall in this camp for me too.

I think I find The Residents more palatable in that respect because they go full-on weird - similarly I actually really enjoy Lumpy Gravy for what it is. One moment that particularly bugs me occurs in 'Camarillo Brillo' - which is an excellent pop-rock song, even taking into account the lyrics - but just that one bit where he sings "She was breeding a DWARF" completely sets my teeth on edge.

Yeah I mean basically we're talking the difference between The Room and Snakes on a Plane here (Zappa is Snakes on a Plane, if you didn't get that)

Haha yeah, the inflection on that dwarf line (I always think of it as Frank's top 40 AM radio dj voice, or game show host.) I used to love it and imitate it as an adolescent; now, not so much. (xpost)

If by the Residents you mean the Shaggs. I have different problems with the Residents. Okay, this analogy is falling apart.

The simple explanation for all this is that Frank hated pretty much everyone who wasn't himself. I mean that may not be true but it explains so much, including why he maybe didn't think his audience was worthy of the "real" Frank?

Records like Hot Rats and Burnt Weeny Sandwich are also really appealing because they're such lush analog recordings. Sound great on vinyl. (Never had Uncle Meat on vinyl.)

Also quite like some of the cover art from that period.

so zappa's gonna take this one, right? tons of knowledgeable fans itt, and a zappa win would square with the results in the previous poll. ILM = people who like the greatful dead, phish and frank zappa. who knew?

grateful?

yeah that

Zappa just has such a vast (if erratic) catalog. From hearing We're Only In it... as an impressionable kid, to checking Uncle Meat out of my local library, to attending rep theater showings of 200 Motels, he's a huge part of my upbringing. Even though I don't listen to him often anymore, these occasional Zappa threads prompt me to scour youtube for stuff I haven't heard, and I generally end up entertained. Search Petit Wazoo shows, and I liked that Texas '73 show I listened to today a lot; lots of jazz, few vocals, little smarm.

also relevant:

http://www.musicdirect.com/p-96346-mothers-of-invention-frank-zappa-the-original-mothers-of-invention-lmtd-ed-import-lp.aspx

I hope everybody has listened to "Clockwork Angels" it is the best.

Gave it another good listen after I saw your post. I wondered if maybe I should have voted for Rush.

It's interesting to compare something like "YYZ" to some of the things on Hot Rats. I could see a case for it being the tighter composition.

my frustration with Zappa's tacit acceptance into the classical canon over, say, hundreds of other more worthy pure pop/world/electronic musicians who've never learned to write score.

But isn't the point that he did write scores? When e.g. SUNY Buffalo offers 'master composer' classes on Zappa (alongside Ives or Ligeti), they're not necessarily saying that he's better than Hendrix or ODB or an Inuit vocal game (or Yes, for that matter). They're saying that he was a composer in the same way that Stravinsky or Ligeti were composers: he wrote and orchestrated music on paper using the language of Western notation. As such, it makes sense to include him in that category (and then evaluate whether or not he was a 'master').

(That said, Richard D James and Tom Jenkinson were also considered contemporary composers by people in my grad programme. I originally included James in my list of composers to study closely for my comps but I ended up dropping him.)

^^^ This is otm. He was a composer first and foremost, and deliberately worked in the rock milieu and arranged for rock band because the wages there weren't starvation-level. xpost

I will never not be laffing about a song actually leading off with "living on a lighted stage approaches the unreal."

Afaict, you're way more of a lyrics-oriented listener than I am so I'm interested in hearing your side of this. I can totally see why the lyrics to "Limelight" aren't great poetry. They're slightly clumsy but I don't think they're that much worse than e.g. Bono or Sting lyrics in this regard. Importantly, though, I think they actually still deal with their subject in an intelligent and thoughtful way, at least compared to most rock songs about being a rock star: "Cast in this unlikely role/Ill-equipped to act/With insufficient tact/One must put up barriers/to keep oneself intact" is actually pretty self-aware despite the weak "tact/intact" rhyme imo, neither sentimental (like "Wanted Dead or Alive") nor bombastic (like The Wall). That's a quality I also appreciate in some of Ian Curtis's lyrics, which could also get clumsy at times.

Also worth noting that "Limelight" lyrics preceded Rush's mainstream crossover.

get on with the fascination imo

have a soft spot for all of these guys

-first time i tried mushrooms was the first time i heard the Mothers (and VU)
-three of us would drive around in high school listening to music and one guy was a big Rush/Yes fan (I was a new wave guy and the other friend was a Dylan freak) so I heard Bytor and the Snow Dog and laughed and laughed at the title. we would share the tape deck so no one was subjected to one band for long. i eventually started liking everything that was played. i like Rush and Yes about evenly, but Working Man really rocked in a Trans Am environment

when i was in fifth grade i went via bus to georgia for a nerd olympics-type thing. wedged between the seats i found a homemade c60 cassette tape that someone had written the stylized R U S H on.

it was taped off some late night radio show doing deep cuts -- the first song was the trees and the second was working man. <3

lol i taped PAT BENETAR off the King Biscuit Flower Hour. like literally stuck a tiny microphone in front of the stereo speaker. god i loved her

that cassette is probably still somewhere in my dad's house, but i no longer have anything to play it on

Nerd Olympics? Are you saying Odyssey of the Mind?

Brownie were we accidentally separated at birth? R U MY TWIN!?

around the same time my dad's colleague made me a mix of fz -- mostly apostrophe/overnight sensation/live stuff iirc. i recall liking 'the torture never stops' but man the vamping did go on

later on in high school i was visiting a college in ny state and couldn't sleep so i put on my walkman and whatever station was there played 'and you and i' and that was pretty sweet

xxp it was called academic games

we are twins viceroy

i never knew, and still don't, whether FZ was serious or what. i read his autobiography and loved it but i was a serious guy back then when it came to pop music and i guess i just don't know

When e.g. SUNY Buffalo offers 'master composer' classes on Zappa (alongside Ives or Ligeti), they're not necessarily saying that he's better than Hendrix or ODB or an Inuit vocal game (or Yes, for that matter). They're saying that he was a composer in the same way that Stravinsky or Ligeti were composers: he wrote and orchestrated music on paper using the language of Western notation. As such, it makes sense to include him in that category (and then evaluate whether or not he was a 'master').

Sure, sure, but what about all the other more talented composers that weren't taught? I mean, this is partly "smh at my school" but no course on Weill, Gershwin, Moondog, Beefheart, Parks, Faust, Bacharach, Scott Walker, Hazelwood, christ, I think more could be learned from Barry Manilow than Zappa as a score composer, and I'm staying pop, like film composers... essentially it's a taste issue here, I guess, b/c I think score composers could learn a fuck of a lot from Nelson Riddle, while meanwhile, you could substitute an entire course on Zappa with a lecture on the theme from "The Simpsons"

hate all these bands, but Yes has a couple songs I find mildly entertaining and their members were in other things that I like a lot (Tomorrow, Plastic Ono Band) so uh them I guess

xp

well, it's partly that by making room for zappa, the academy bows to boomer tastes, right? rock, funk & soul, pop music, rebellious iconoclasm, freaky subversion, etc. the others you mentioned wouldn't accomplish that so well, with the exception of beefheart.

I'd question how much Zappa is taught in undergrad music history or composition classes, honestly.

also zappa brought freedom to czechoslovakia iirc

(or theory classes)

xp

There's a lot not to like about Zappa, but in practice it doesn't bother me because I just don't pay any attention to it and only listen to the good stuff (original mothers + lumpy gravy & hot rats).

But wow, Owen's specific dislikes of Zappa couldn't be more diametrically opposed to mine.

Nah Zappa the guy and Zappa the label man is totally OK by me.

That's interesting because as much as I like his early music I think it would be pretty hard to deny that the guy was a huge asshole. And "zappa the guy" is mostly what people object to re: his dumb sense of humor, lyrics, etc.

You know, Uncle Meat Zappa, Hot Rats Zappa. Fuck that Zappa.

wtf, those are two of his best albums

I love Zappa the dude and like that he was drug-free and sober and ambitious,

that's the most insufferable thing about zappa! thankfully he surrounded himself with other musicians that weren't like that.

I've spent a lot of time with his music and it is categorically not my thing and I'm a little sad to think there are people out there who'd favour him over Yes, who are often awesome, and Rush, who are always awesome.

lol, so backwards. Zappa made a decent chunk of great music before '70. Yes had brief moments of brilliance but man, talk about lack of development! I rarely feel like sitting through an entire Yes album to hear those few cool parts. I guess my brain is more suited to Zappa's ADD approach. and LOL @ Rush.

When I think of Zappa as being part of the rock canon, I place him right next to Todd Rundgren, basically, a guy who made a handful of smart rock records before turning into something that is not for me. "Uncle Meat" and "A Wizard, A True Star" respectively, basically.

So basically you don't like anything that's awesome?

xp to contendo: That is a hugely interesting point and I never thought of that. I guess he is the best example of "whoa! the 60s!"

@ timellison As I said, I can only reference my mercifully short academic career.

@ wk Cool, we're different people!

I'd question how much Zappa is taught in undergrad music history or composition classes, honestly.

― timellison, Thursday, August 9, 2012 6:23 PM (19 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

CSCL 2032: Dude You Just Haven't Heard The Right Albums: Navigating Zappa

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YIjte73IPg

I've heard of this stereotype of "Zappa fans", but I never experienced that vibe where I went to school. Where I went to school it was Dream Theater fans. Course that might be down to engineering major vs. musicology major culture.

So like maybe the stereotype breakdown goes like this:
Rush fans = dudes who thought they were smart but weren't, really
Zappa fans = dudes who thought they were smart, and were, but were still insufferable condescending assholes
Yes fans = spaced out hippies with a fondness for bass solos

If we're going by these stereotypes, I gotta go with #3, as long as they don't try and sell me any crystals. Or candles shaped like crystals. That said I haven't known a whole lot of meathead Rush fans, or condescending Zappa fans, or well really any Yes fans.

rush is different though because there are casual rush fans that just like tom sawyer, limelight, and some scattered radio staples. i'm not sure there are casual yes fans outside of ppl that like owner of a lonely heart as an 80s single.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5agCr45Ev4&feature=related

On the "Dude you just haven't heard" tip, there's some great stuff on Lumpy Money like the original 22 minute long edit of Lumpy Gravy with no talking, another assembly of similar stuff called "How Did That Get In Here" and instrumental versions of some of the WOIIFTM songs at their original tempos which were kind of a revelation to me. All essential listening for nerds who like '60s Hollywood recording studio behind-the-scenes geekery and instrumentals of Wrecking Crew tracks.

Yeah, with respect, Ówen, I'm just not sure that Zappa has the pride of place in music academia that you're claiming, especially over some of the other composers you mention. We can agree that the Norton Anthology of Western Music is about as 'canon' as it gets? These are the contents of its volume on the 20th century: http://books.wwnorton.com/books/detail-contents.aspx?ID=13437

Note the presence of Joplin, Gershwin, Bessie Smith, King Oliver/Louis Armstrong, Ellington (also on my list of composers for my comps - as was Ornette btw), W. G. Still, and the absence of Zappa. (I never thought Weill was excluded from the canon at all btw.)

The Royal Conservatory History overview course covers Bernstein but certainly not Zappa, at least back when I took it. I don't think Zappa is stressed that heavily in Burkholder/Palisca/Grout (the overwhelmingly dominant history text)? My undergrad courses did cover Gershwin but not Zappa. I only really came across that at UB where there was an elective 'master composer' course which would be about Ives one year, Ligeti one year, Zappa one year, ...

I can say that I've never taught or felt obliged to teach about Zappa (although I do sometimes use Rush's "YYZ" as an example of the Locrian mode in 20th century theory classes!).

xposts

that you're claiming

Maybe "suggesting" is a better word than "claiming" here.

I do sometimes use Rush's "YYZ" as an example of the Locrian mode in 20th century theory classes!

i don't even know what that means, but <3

I feel like Yes wanted to integrate classical music into rock and they actually knew what they were doing and did it in a pretty successful way. While Zappa wanted to be Varese but actually ended up sounding more like Les Baxter or Henry Mancini. And Yes seems to have taken themselves extremely seriously. Zappa maybe took himself even more seriously while working really hard to pretend like he didn't, which is pretty obnoxious. But those kind of embarrassing failures sometimes led to more interesting music.

I feel confident in asserting, just from what I've gathered from friends, that going to music school can make you hate the shit outta some music school dudes. I would further guess that a lot of music school dudes who don't seem to hate other music school dudes...are Zappa fans, and vocal about it.

in my limited experience w/music school dudes, who I totally do not hate but they do have their own distinct vibe, they also think John Williams is the fucking business.

There is something to say about that, it's rare to hear a Zappa album and just not have a reaction to it, which puts them ahead of stuff like Tales from Topographic Oceans

That said, Zappa rarely reached the heights that Yes did. I mean the great thing about the good Yes albums is that they're just satisfying from beginning to end and there's so much you can focus on, while the best moments in the Zappa catalogue rarely last more than two minutes or so

The biggest music school nerd I knew in HS (ended up going to Berklee) played in a Yes cover band!

wanted to be Varese but actually ended up sounding more like Les Baxter

This is an unnecessary zing. Are you sure he "wanted to be Varese?" Because he sure seemed to devote his life to other things.

And even if you're talking about "Uncle Meat," it's only "Les Baxter" by default because it's melodic (and not even Les Baxter-style melodic).

It wasn't even meant as a zing. I love the '60s soundtracky style of early zappa.

sund4r thank you for bringing up Norton Anthology! Check the 3rd edition (1996) and you'll see the source of my frustration. (Looking online for a more comprehensive list of the studied works; I only have the scorebook on hand.)

For Locrian mode in pop music, here's a tip: Björk "Army of Me". (She adjusts the scale in the chorus, the bass is Locrian)

Ffff now I just want to ask Owen and Sund4r what the academics think of ol' Ennio Morricone. IMO his original soundtracks are way better than orchetral renditions because the instrumentation in his filmworks include shit like sirens and vocal shouts and gunshots and stuff that AFAIK is not part of classical symphony orchestra. Probably gonna take this to a different thread...

xp I was off-base re: Gershwin, my bad. He's always been on syllabus.