Rush vs Yes vs Zappa

I can't actually imagine a poll in which I'd vote for Zappa, save "Zappa vs. death by stoning"

"Duke of Prunes" yo

Also, even if you hate Zappa's music, check out the albums he put out:

STS 1051 - Alice Cooper - Pretties for You (1969)
STS 1052 - Judy Henske and Jerry Yester - Farewell Aldebaran (1969)
2-STS 1053 - Captain Beefheart And His Magic Band - Trout Mask Replica (1969)
STS 1054 - Lord Buckley A Most Immaculately Hip Aristocrat (1969)
STS 1056 - Jeff Simmons And Randy Steirling Naked Angels (1969)
STS 1057 - Jeff Simmons Lucille Has Messed My Mind Up (1969)
STS 1058 - Tim Dawe Penrod (1969)
STS 1059 - GTO's Permanent Damage (1969)
STS 1060 - Tim Buckley Blue Afternoon (1969)
STS 1061 - Alice Cooper Easy Action (1969)
STS 1062 - Persuasions Acappella (1970)
STS 1063 - Captain Beefheart And His Magic Band Lick My Decals Off, Baby (1970)
STS 1064 - Tim Buckley Starsailor (1971)
STS 1065 - Alice Cooper Love It to Death (1971)

That "Enema Bandit" clip sums up most of the aspects of Zappa that I hate: a smug, tedious monologue; lame, juvenile humour; a go-nowhere noodly solo.

I get what you mean w/r/t Zappa's lyrics, but the difference is that Yes never really forced you to pay attention to them the way Zappa does. I agree that in his better moments the lyrics are easy to ignore, but so much of Zappa's catalogue is stuff like "Bobby Brown Goes Down" or "Sy Borg" or "He's So Gay" where the lyrics are clearly the focal point.

This + it's not only that Zappa's lyrics can be genuinely unpleasant but they're so obviously trying really hard to be funny and so often fall so wide of the mark for me, at least. Like, did this shit actually seem clever in the 70s?

Peart's interest in Rand has been discussed pretty thoroughly between this thread, the Rush vs Yes vs Dead thread, and the C/D thread. He was into Rand in a fairly naive way. What are emphasized in the lyrics are atheism, independent thought, and creative freedom. Especially with his earnestness, this can seem adolescent but their lyrics are clearly not right-wing political screeds. In fact, they've demanded that right-wing talk radio NOT use their music.

xpost I voted for Yes in the end: they have a significant string of albums I consider great; at their worst, they're boring or saccharine, not outright idiotic or obnoxious.

Also, it looked like Zappa was going to run away with this.

And there's almost nothing to pay attention to otherwise. I meant to add that.

Yeah, OTM with some of those late 70s Zappa tunes. With e.g. Yes lyrics, it's pretty clear that the words are just something for Anderson to hang a melody on. Not the case with something like "Bobby Brown" where the melody is so basic.

Nah Zappa the guy and Zappa the label man is totally OK by me.

Zappa the purveyor of dick jokes in 15/8 is not OK. Zappa the author of "stick it, stick it, stick it, stick it in her poop shoot" is also not OK, catchy though it is. Zappa the composer, who has zero interest in developing any ideas beyond its expository phase: not OK. "We will have 30 seconds of ragtime followed by 45 seconds of free jazz followed by another Suzy Creemcheeze thing." You know, Uncle Meat Zappa, Hot Rats Zappa. Fuck that Zappa. Draconian rehearsal nightmare Zappa is not OK. "I will write something physically impossible for anybody to sing, get Tina to sing it all night until she gets it, while I deliver a first-take half-written thing about dental floss."

Also I don't like that every time somebody starts talking about Zappa at a party, somebody goes "what? you haven't heard {album}?" and loads it up on the Youtube. After about 30 seconds every girl in the room is making that "...awkward!" glace at each other.

I do confess that I like several instrumental tracks, I like "Freak Out" enough to listen to it once a year. I liked "Apostrophe" when I was 10 and thought I was too cool for Weird Al and "Humpty Dance" wouldn't come out 'til the following year. I love Zappa the dude and like that he was drug-free and sober and ambitious, I've spent a lot of time with his music and it is categorically not my thing and I'm a little sad to think there are people out there who'd favour him over Yes, who are often awesome, and Rush, who are always awesome.

it must be said, the lyric is 'ram it, ram it, ram it…', not 'stick it, stick it, stick it…'. maybe he writes good lyrics after all - they can stick!

also what first won my post-adolescent heart over to zappa was the song about raising up the dental floss.

Zappa the composer, who has zero interest in developing any ideas beyond its expository phase: not OK. "We will have 30 seconds of ragtime followed by 45 seconds of free jazz followed by another Suzy Creemcheeze thing." You know, Uncle Meat Zappa, Hot Rats Zappa.

I haven't listened to them in a while, but is there not a fair amount of thematic development in "Uncle Meat," "Dog Breath," maybe "Son of Mr. Green Genes?"

Zappa no hesitation no question.

Also I don't like that every time somebody starts talking about Zappa at a party, somebody goes "what? you haven't heard {album}?" and loads it up on the Youtube.

I was going to be all "lol what parties do you go to??", then I remembered being in composition school. (One of the biggest Zappa fans was a woman, though, actually!)

Zappa the composer, who has zero interest in developing any ideas beyond its expository phase: not OK. "We will have 30 seconds of ragtime followed by 45 seconds of free jazz followed by another Suzy Creemcheeze thing." You know, Uncle Meat Zappa, Hot Rats Zappa.

Zappa certainly has music that fits this description but I don't think that Hot Rats does.

I can only think of two examples of prog bands who made some serviceable attempt at classical-style thematic development in a rock context- Yes circa "Close to the Edge", and Egg's "Enneagram".

This was actually what I was trying to get at in the other thread re the originality/sophistication of "Close to the Edge", especially for its time.

The "oh you just haven't heard THIS Zappa album" conversation happens now, happened last week, happens while travelling and meeting strangers, staying with acquaintances etc. The "collage + creamcheeze" quote was obv directed toward Uncle Meat, but Hot Rats too is all exposition, no development. I mean, I don't want to have the "is Zappa's music worthwhile from an academic perspective" i.e. is there development here? It's classist and weird to have that discussion-- and I'm not accusing anybody of *going there* but myself. The reason I brought it up, the lack of development in Hot Rats and Uncle Meat specifically, is b/c those are the two albums that are always being brought up of "proof of genius" when people start complaining about his misogyny and general unfunniness in his songs proper. People always try to have it two or three ways with Zappa. Oh, you don't like the rock music of "Freak Out" (I do!) What about his jazz fusion? Or his orchestral stuff? Or his novelty songs? Like "Valley Girl"? Or his film work? And so on. Oh wait! His live albums? His Synclavier stuff? Did you hear the Boulez concert? Have you heard "Shut up and play your guitar"? The man wrote quickly and inelegantly and never fleshed anything out beyond its brainstorming phase and I think it's interesting that the same people who'll stan forever for Zappa on ILM will dismiss other fastidious white-person music like Dirty Projectors, but yeah, I've spent too many words shitting on Zappa on a thread that's so obviously pro-Zappa. I hope everybody has listened to "Clockwork Angels" it is the best.

ugh Owen it is not "classist" to talk about music from whatever perspective one likes, cut that out plz.

tbf, aero, the only person I accused of being classist was myself. When I think of Zappa as being part of the rock canon, I place him right next to Todd Rundgren, basically, a guy who made a handful of smart rock records before turning into something that is not for me. "Uncle Meat" and "A Wizard, A True Star" respectively, basically.

For me to mention, in passing, that Zappa opted out of developing his material compositionally, is both a reference to the fact that Zappa is highly rated in academic circles, at least, he was when I was in school; mostly the joke-rock of Apostrophe, the jazz fusion of Hot Rats, the collage music of Uncle Meat. I don't actually listen to music with only an ear for "development".

Yeah im voting Zappa here but not in a million years would i put him on at a party. Or really even bring him up in general to strangers.

xp Anyway, you don't think it's classist for a classical music guy to dance ironically to house music and then sniff dismissively about its reliance upon "a steady pulse" and "lack of development" on the walk home? I do. And I don't want to be that guy...

Ha ha, Adam, here I am complaining about Zappa evangelizers but I put on "Duke of Prunes" and it's nice.

Man, I love so many individual players that crossed paths with Zappa but I pretty much hate any time they're all playing together, with him. I guess I appreciate the first Mothers album, or something like "Hot Rats," but so much of the satire is facile and smug and the playing formally impressive but also kind of stiff and lame. Dude sure did like to vamp, too (which is where his influence manifests itself in bands like Phish).

I find Rush's arrangements to be consistently impeccable and downright scary in the amount of stuff they logically stick into a five minute songs. If I didn't love the band already I would vote for them on the basis of economy alone.

And I do this every Rush thread, but what the fuck with bringing up Ayn Rand again? It was just a little window of Peart's lyrics almost 40 years ago (when, for that matter, and as others have pointed out, Rand hadn't totally been discredited/vilified yet). That'd be like ripping on, I don't know, '00s Bowie for his druggy excess and wan flirtation with soul music. Move on.

I've never met any actual hardcore Zappa fans in real life - I'd seen the Onion thing and read anti-Zappa pieces in various places before I'd ever even heard his music so I guess I knew they were A Thing. Anyway I voted for him because he's got more great songs than Yes and Rush combined but he's still the most problematic artist of the three. I mean I like Freak Out! a lot but even the early Mothers can irritate me, just for the way nearly every nice or interesting melodic/harmonic part has to be interrupted by a wacky voice or annoying noise of some description. I love Hot Rats unconditionally and think 'Watermelon in Easter Hay' is beautiful, generally I wish there was more of that and less "Oh no, I've written a pop song, people might think I'm a sellout if I don't put an out-of-tune kazoo on it".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXSSr0cct-k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVYYuJhdBwU&feature=relmfu

Ugh. But first comment: "Best cut of Stairway to Heaven bar none. Led Zeppelin: you came up with the idea. FZ perfected it."

Different strokes ...

Anyway, you don't think it's classist for a classical music guy to dance ironically to house music and then sniff dismissively about its reliance upon "a steady pulse" and "lack of development" on the walk home? I do. And I don't want to be that guy...

well, I don't believe in ironic dancing, to start with: I have a long and boring rant about that, but the short of it is, if you're dancing, you're dancing, no matter what insecurities cause you to try to cloak your dancing in a field of plausible deniability. I also think that talking about lack of development in any music...is fine! if one's take is "there must be development," then I disagree, but I don't think it's classist to talk about it. finally I think it's more than possible to groove to something and later go "ok, I grooved to that but I have opinions about it please let me share them on this walk home."

Yeah, Owen, "Duke of Prunes" is WONDERFUL. Reminds me a good bit of Eric Satie.

I'm hinting at a larger problem, though, aero, without trying to bring up a day job.

Again, I really don't think that description of collage music applies to Uncle Meat. I know there are a fair number of short tracks but there are also "The Uncle Meat Variations" and "Dog Breath Variations." Which tracks on there might have been developed more?

OK, here goes, I got ten minutes. The tendency of classical musicians, in either the practical performative field or the academic field, to be sniffy and dismissive of pop concerns is a real thing. I know that pop guys suspect that it happens and it does. I'm talking about orchestral performers shrugging and playing dumb while accompanying Antony. I'm talking about classical music critics debating whether or not Jonny Greenwood can be called a composer. I'm talking about the dying branch of ethnomusicological thought that parses world music for its appeal to Western sensitivities, ugh ugh ugh.

And then there's pop music's counter attack. That classical musicians are somehow slumming it, i.e. inauthentic. "Oh she's classically trained? Like I give a shit." When I work as an arranger and I'm dealing constantly with whether or not it sounds like I just put a powdered wig on a punk band, I do not want another "Baby I love you". I say it's a class issue and it isn't, it is an aesthetic issue, but it's the aesthetics of class issues. You feel me?

So yeah, some people here i.e. Sund4r know I went to a composition school, I've been prone to didactic bullshit conversations on ILM about "horizontal composition vs. vertical composition" and have been roundly chastised for it. So when I say, "Lots of people in the academic world like Zappa. Here is my criticism of the albums they love. I apologize if my assessment could be construed as classist," I hope you understand where I'm coming from.

"Oh no, I've written a pop song, people might think I'm a sellout if I don't put an out-of-tune kazoo on it".

This is what really bothers me about Zappa, there's only so many tunes like "Oh No" or "Peaches en Regalia" that are just completely pitch perfect, meanwhile there's so much stuff like "Dog Breath" where it's like, it could totally be a brilliant and perfect thing but Zappa's so intent on letting you know THIS IS A JOKE that he adds a bunch of high pitched screaming and altered vocals and offbeat instrumentation. Freak Out! had a lot of songs that were done semi-straight but clearly weren't, you know? I mean yeah that had kazoos but I have the feeling that if 70's Zappa decided to re-record something like "I Ain't Got No Heart" he would add screaming and a 10-second sound collage and burping noises and completely ruin it. And who knows what he'd do to the lyrics!!

it must be said, the lyric is 'ram it, ram it, ram it…', not 'stick it, stick it, stick it…'. maybe he writes good lyrics after all - they can stick!

Shiek Yerbouti was my first Zappa album and I admit this part made me crack up quite a bit, because, y'know, who does that? Now I appreciate that line because it's one of the few times where Zappa manages to be tasteless and gross in so few words.

"Dog Breath" is one of those Zappa songs ("Duke Of Prunes" is another) with ridiculous lyrics atop a beautiful melody line, but "altered vocals and offbeat instrumentation" is so much part and parcel of his M.O. in this era that I love it regardless. The Residents fall in this camp for me too.

btw, a friend sent me this bass cover of "Peaches..." on facebook recently, it's pretty nifty:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLB4XdkgNCI

"altered vocals and offbeat instrumentation" is so much part and parcel of his M.O. in this era that I love it regardless. The Residents fall in this camp for me too.

in some cases, I can see it, but for me, "Duke" and "Dog Breath" are really different things, maybe because the vocal on "Duke" is actually funny? I mean just the tendency for him to wrap his best stuff in six layers of irony makes his catalogue such a frustrating listen. I mean albums like Shiek Yerbouti contain so much brilliant stuff that it's kind of a shame that my reaction to it is always "shut up SHUT UP shut up SHUT UP!!"

That "Peaches..." cover is quite nifty.

That's a good cover, thanks! xp

For the "Duke of Prunes" fans who haven't heard its original incarnation, here are the two pieces from Run Home Slow on Mystery Disc 1. "Duke" starts at 1:24.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sviQhh5NgRs

I find Rush's arrangements to be consistently impeccable and downright scary in the amount of stuff they logically stick into a five minute songs. If I didn't love the band already I would vote for them on the basis of economy alone.

And I do this every Rush thread, but what the fuck with bringing up Ayn Rand again?

free markets are efficient markets, it's only logical

relevant Spotify Playlist

Zappa as Composer (basically zappa's stuff isn't on Spotify so this is various ensembles doing his works, pretty cool stuff)

http://open.spotify.com/user/ulyssestone/playlist/5TbtE6C4mnpoMQGI7BvP9m

Quite a few full-length Zappa bootlegs are on youtube since I last checked. 1973 Arlington TX, with Jean-Luc Ponty, is really good so far.

dying branch of ethnomusicological thought that parses world music for its appeal to Western sensitivities

I'm not sure that this is not entirely a strawman, by the way. I don't know as that this accusation applies to any of the normally considered pioneers of the field - Nettl, Hood, Charles Seeger, or others.

I'm not j'accuse-ing ethnomusicology as a whole and certainly not the people you mentioned! I can think of two specific examples off the top of my head (a composer who brings Greek traditional music to the concert hall by removing all context of its original presentation and scores it for orchestra; a transcription of Mongolian throat singing into Western notation) but, like the other instances I mentioned, they are not indicative of any community as a whole, and for every example of classical snobbery there are ten examples where it is not the case. Not looking for a strawman, just trying to explain the root of my frustration with Zappa's tacit acceptance into the classical canon over, say, hundreds of other more worthy pure pop/world/electronic musicians who've never learned to write score.

"Dog Breath" is one of those Zappa songs ("Duke Of Prunes" is another) with ridiculous lyrics atop a beautiful melody line, but "altered vocals and offbeat instrumentation" is so much part and parcel of his M.O. in this era that I love it regardless. The Residents fall in this camp for me too.

I think I find The Residents more palatable in that respect because they go full-on weird - similarly I actually really enjoy Lumpy Gravy for what it is. One moment that particularly bugs me occurs in 'Camarillo Brillo' - which is an excellent pop-rock song, even taking into account the lyrics - but just that one bit where he sings "She was breeding a DWARF" completely sets my teeth on edge.

Yeah I mean basically we're talking the difference between The Room and Snakes on a Plane here (Zappa is Snakes on a Plane, if you didn't get that)

Haha yeah, the inflection on that dwarf line (I always think of it as Frank's top 40 AM radio dj voice, or game show host.) I used to love it and imitate it as an adolescent; now, not so much. (xpost)

If by the Residents you mean the Shaggs. I have different problems with the Residents. Okay, this analogy is falling apart.

The simple explanation for all this is that Frank hated pretty much everyone who wasn't himself. I mean that may not be true but it explains so much, including why he maybe didn't think his audience was worthy of the "real" Frank?

Records like Hot Rats and Burnt Weeny Sandwich are also really appealing because they're such lush analog recordings. Sound great on vinyl. (Never had Uncle Meat on vinyl.)

Also quite like some of the cover art from that period.

so zappa's gonna take this one, right? tons of knowledgeable fans itt, and a zappa win would square with the results in the previous poll. ILM = people who like the greatful dead, phish and frank zappa. who knew?

grateful?

yeah that

Zappa just has such a vast (if erratic) catalog. From hearing We're Only In it... as an impressionable kid, to checking Uncle Meat out of my local library, to attending rep theater showings of 200 Motels, he's a huge part of my upbringing. Even though I don't listen to him often anymore, these occasional Zappa threads prompt me to scour youtube for stuff I haven't heard, and I generally end up entertained. Search Petit Wazoo shows, and I liked that Texas '73 show I listened to today a lot; lots of jazz, few vocals, little smarm.

also relevant:

http://www.musicdirect.com/p-96346-mothers-of-invention-frank-zappa-the-original-mothers-of-invention-lmtd-ed-import-lp.aspx