RUSH vs. YES vs. THE GRATEFUL DEAD

Problem is, there are whole decades of sub-par Dead, which puts their legacy in a bad light, while there are only albums-worth of sub-par Rush or Yes.

(fwiw, I didn't vote, but probably would've voted for the Dead: more feedback than Yes and Rush combined)

http://thisevilempire.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/fonziejumpsshark3sl.gif

For all the stock put in their compositional skills and progressivism, did Yes or Rush ever create music that was as big a redefinition of genre as "St. Stephen?"

I would attempt to answer the question but I don't understand it. What does it mean to redefine a genre, how does it relate to compositional skills, and how does "St Stephen" do this?

no fuggin way. this is four noise board dudes with 10 socks each.

and fuck, i dunno, 20 lurkers

INDIGNATION

"St. Stephen" is clearly rock music. (I mean, someone even hollers during it. It sounds like rock and roll.) But what are the touchstones for such a song? Maybe the two guitars in the Rolling Stones had that kind of rhythm-plus-riffs-in-between counterpoint going on before, but it didn't sound like this. And the bass player is playing these funky, muddy chords. And there are two drummers. And it just sounds like nothing other than themselves - structurally and sonically.

I'm not saying Yes and Rush were not innovative, but this is a substantial piece of music that seems to me to stand way out there on its own.

no fuggin way. this is four noise board dudes with 10 socks each.

dying

I see. It would seem that it would be harder for a rock band to 'redefine the genre' that way in 1975 or even 1972, after everything that had already been done in the 60s, when the genre was still young.

That said, I'm interested in knowing what you see as the touchstones for "Close to the Edge". Obviously, Thick as a Brick is an even larger-scale composition but it doesn't quite do what CttE does formally. There are some ideas, esp the opening solo, that suggest McLaughlin/Mahavishnu but the overall composition is not like something he'd do.

xpost to tim

you ppl are nutso, the dead are a great band, i don't understand why these poll results surprise you? especially considering how stigma-laden the entire genre of prog rock is? and this is ilx? where we have lots of threads abt the dead? idk. pretending like this is some great disappointment and a sign of society heading to the gutter... don't be dumb.

many xposts to aero but...

I think this is actually pretty true - it's like, once you sort of locate the thing in what they do that you like, you hear it everywhere, and other stuff on/around it either becomes invisible or easy to ignore.

I'm genuinely interested in what this thing that you've located is. because, sure, some of the country rock is pleasant. and some of the dead's jams are pleasant too. but man, so much of their stuff is so bland to me. their albums are so spotty. their live sets are so spotty. I seriously can't hear what makes people become so obsessed with this band and I am really trying to hear it, man!

otoh, if you don't like this, I'm not sure what your problem is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0HnIr6jYWU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhSaDMocYnY&feature=fvst

listening now. this is nice.

I guess my problem with this band is that they've never been as weird or 'out' as I was hoping for. and they never really rock too hard. they never really freak you out too much. not very funky. just kinda pleasant, I suppose. bringing some baggage to the table, I know...

the touchstones for "Close to the Edge"

"Tarkus?" I don't know if we're just talking about its complexity as a super-long suite, but The Incredible String Band did them going back to "A Very Cellular Song" in '68 (even longer ones like "White Bird" and "Creation" a year later).

poll results otm imo

so I'm stoked, just came up on a box of about 400 live Dead tapes today in Oakland. so excited to check these out. I already had a decent collection from my trader days but damn. a sizable chuck of shows from every year too

I predicted a Rush win but I'm not too startled by this. Clearly, people who don't like prog rock would vote for the Dead by default. Rush and Yes both have singers that turn off many people.

xposts

*sizeable xp

"Tarkus?" I don't know if we're just talking about its complexity as a super-long suite, but The Incredible String Band did them going back to "A Very Cellular Song" in '68 (even longer ones like "White Bird" and "Creation" a year later).

Not just complexity and length per se. The form has been analysed by Covach as a kind of hugely expanded AABA, by others as a sort of sonata form - the way they're able to build this large unified form using rock materials (there are still verses and refrains, for example), but also even using a quasi-ritornello in that pseudo-Baroque organ figure. I'm also thinking of the way the studio processing is integrated into the form and the forces used (four different keyboards, three singers, electric sitar).

I have Tarkus but I'm not sure I've ever made it all the way through, to be honest.:P

the real story is that the dead got spanked 2-1 by the power and majesty of prog, it just looks differently because the vote got split

if string cheese incident or wookiefoot had been in the poll yes would have won

I guess my problem with this band is that they've never been as weird or 'out' as I was hoping for. and they never really rock too hard.

I thought the same thing, for about 20 years. Then I heard "Feedback" from Live/Dead...then I heard other "Feedback"s from other live Dead releases (all from 1968-1969, tbf)...

ok not quite 2:1

i'm more surprised rush has 40 votes than yes and dead virtually tying

yeah anthem of sun and live/dead are sort of a different beast tho

(I also don't know the ISB as well as I should but I'll look into it. I think I usually want prettier singing with that sort of thing tbh, which may be a barrier for me with the Dead as well?)

xpost to self

also i don't agree w contenderizer but i bet the dead pulled the troll vote

Bet Rush would smoke this if you put it to a general classic rock radio audience.

"A Very Cellular Song" is really the great one as far as the ISB goes. "White Bird" is longer but actually not as complex.

Oh, and Robin and Mike were very pretty singers!

they were!

...

It has been at least 10 years since I've heard any ISB. We had one of their albums in my undergrad lounge. I remember liking it. I'm quite fond of Fairport and (especially) Pentangle so this probably won't be a hard sell.

I'll look for those.

xpost to tim

yeah, if you're into fairport and pentangle, you're good to go

yeah i was going to post that isb is not like dead and bring up fairport but i didn't want to run ot

also i don't agree w contenderizer but i bet the dead pulled the troll vote

― the late great, Friday, August 3, 2012 10:01 PM (Yesterday)

oh, i don't suspect shenanigans for real. was just playing dr. fever, tbh.

also when was the noise board not four guys with 10 socks each

to celebrate the dead winning i am listening to ccr who are in every way superior

^ lock thread

so I'm stoked, just came up on a box of about 400 live Dead tapes today in Oakland. so excited to check these out. I already had a decent collection from my trader days but damn. a sizable chuck of shows from every year too

― Chris S, Saturday, August 4, 2012 4:44 AM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

!

yep. couldn't believe my luck

http://i.imgur.com/25eBb.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/uyUV9.jpg

That's so awesome Chris. I loved my collection of tapes (mostly Phish, not Dead, unfortunately). Having all these different homemade labels and handwriting from people you'd probably never know or even meet from all kinds of circumstances, all across America, just exchanging important information the best way they could. Putting out feelers: "hey, do you know anyone with the Atlanta shows yet?" Olden days.

Victory parade

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PU-Fuu6T4A

Yeah, xp, I have a box of Phish tapes somewhere, much more than I'd care to admit!

Man these tapes are really bringing a lot of memories back, all the little scribblings are so fascinating. Lots of hand-drawn psychedelic artand Dead iconography, and yeah, little notes sometimes slipped into the cases. Hoping to maybe find an old blotter sheet with one of the 90s designs or something hidden in one of 'em eventually. And what trader could forget Maxell XL II's?

Gonna have a blast exploring new/old shows on tape again, just realizing this evening how much I love '70 Dead.

Really enjoy suddenly having a ton of new shows to explore all together actually. I mean, it's nice to really get to know one show/tape, get familiar with every nuance of a certain jam, but it's way more of a headtrip, I think, to constantly move from new show to new show, because you while get to really know the essence of every song, more crucially, you experience just how differently the songs are realized every time. There's such a different energy to every concert. And they really go so deep. People who claim the Dead don't really get that psychedelic need to become familiar with their language first, it's really startling just how differently they throw themselves into it every time.

These results, like the Dead: quantity does not equal quality.

Whoever said CCR wins is OTM.

rush fans: an eternally self-selecting group of people who will never grow not to be butthurt about the fact that other people are not rush fans

though it would be interesting to run this poll again as dead vs ccr

ccr vs allman brothers vs dead (pigpen years)

rush fans: an eternally self-selecting group of people who will never grow not to be butthurt about the fact that other people are not rush fans

I don't object to Rush losing, I object to the Dead winning

I vote for a dead Rush.