That's it! The only ism I want to come out of your mouths is jism. Overacademic Bullshit Must Die.

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critics in not-being-able-to-take-criticism SHOCKAH!

oops (Oops), Friday, 23 May 2003 21:46 (twenty-one years ago) link

http://rosecity.net/al_gore/head_up_ass.jpg

oops (Oops), Friday, 23 May 2003 21:57 (twenty-one years ago) link

(yeah, you're right that's a picture of me. good retort)
/preemptive

oops (Oops), Friday, 23 May 2003 21:58 (twenty-one years ago) link

that dude's doing the dirty ostrich!

Yanc3y (ystrickler), Friday, 23 May 2003 22:14 (twenty-one years ago) link

it is entirely true that if — like oops — you can lay claim to an infinite "instinctual" pre-knowledge of everything ever, then criticism is entirely pointless

not so for us mere finite lower beings, who wish to find out about stuff we know that we don't know, and are only too humbly aware that we may need to think about things we've never thought about before

does he just hang around with us to LAUGH at us? baffling are the ways of the arching gods to mortals

mark s (mark s), Friday, 23 May 2003 22:41 (twenty-one years ago) link

yes, that's exactly what I claimed. you guys are so fucking touchy
What I meant was that he (Kogan) verbalized things that many of us had a sense of anyway.
But continue making false assumptions and asinine responses if it fits your needs.

oops (Oops), Friday, 23 May 2003 23:08 (twenty-one years ago) link

i love teasing you oops, you get SO ANGRY SO FAST, and it messes your logic up even worse than normal

mark s (mark s), Friday, 23 May 2003 23:23 (twenty-one years ago) link

Oooh yeah, I am SO angry. Do you see the smoke coming out of my ears?Mark, grow the fuck up. Do you even see how much of a prick you're being?

oops (Oops), Friday, 23 May 2003 23:28 (twenty-one years ago) link

Hee hee.

Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 23 May 2003 23:28 (twenty-one years ago) link

"(Look at all the intellectuals squirm!)"

mark s (mark s), Friday, 23 May 2003 23:32 (twenty-one years ago) link

Zing?

oops (Oops), Friday, 23 May 2003 23:37 (twenty-one years ago) link

(they're still squirming)

oops (Oops), Friday, 23 May 2003 23:39 (twenty-one years ago) link

"the purpose of language is making other ppl do something: communication is generally a part of that, but not always "

mark s (mark s), Friday, 23 May 2003 23:40 (twenty-one years ago) link

Good one. You win!

oops (Oops), Friday, 23 May 2003 23:42 (twenty-one years ago) link

:)

night oops (i'm on yr side on the war against boys thread btw)

mark s (mark s), Friday, 23 May 2003 23:44 (twenty-one years ago) link

peace.
I forgot the point we were even arguing, so here's to you for a job well done! (that was not sarcastic)(i think)

oops (Oops), Friday, 23 May 2003 23:47 (twenty-one years ago) link

and here i thought the whole you-suck-no-you-suck school of criticism had been discredited by the back of my 6th grade home room teacher's hand after the great Van Halen-vs-Styx debates of 79.

scott seward, Friday, 23 May 2003 23:57 (twenty-one years ago) link

This was more in the style of the you suck-whateverrrr school.

oops (Oops), Saturday, 24 May 2003 05:54 (twenty-one years ago) link

''So here is my argument against it''

um, i'm surprised you're arg against ''good'' writing bcz you have ranted abt bad writers in many other threads no?

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Saturday, 24 May 2003 08:49 (twenty-one years ago) link

I suppose talking abt music, books is what keeps it alive for me. hearing a record and hearing someone else's opinion of it are equally important to me.

From frank's essay: ''I've heard Marcus's prose attacked for being too dry. Compared to what, the Great Flood?''

Miccio didn't give any examples but this is why this thread has been so 'successful'. he didn't put a line where good criticism ends and academic crit begins and then where that ends and overacademic crit begins.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Saturday, 24 May 2003 09:12 (twenty-one years ago) link

I'M THE FIRESTARTAH! TWISTED FIRESTARTAH!

http://www.mtv.com/news/images/p/prodigy980507.gif

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 24 May 2003 16:30 (twenty-one years ago) link

The reason this is such an explosive topic on ILM is that the community here consists of plenty of people who are more academic-minded, but also people that want to talk about music but find the academic angle frustrating. When we post here, who do we have in mind? The entire ILM community? Or the select group of people that we know will "get it"?

There's another group here (and I'm sure this doesn't exhaust things), of which I'm a member. Those who love the highly intellectual stuff and feel privileged to read the fantastic stuff here from Sinkah and Kogan and Nabisco and Jerry the Nipper and indeed Sterling - but who have not had the kind of education that means we necessarily have much info about Gramsci and the like in our heads. Kogan's Kuhn thread (on ILE) addresses this point explicitly, by explaining the ideas he wants to discuss. I find that I can generally grasp and follow the ideas reasonably well that people like those I just mentioned bring up, and can even make some attempt to address them at times, and that comes from seeing the ideas talked about, not from any previous knowledge of them (usually) or any knowledge of their originators (which I think is generally the least important bit).

I don't complain if someone cites Gramsci and I don't know what ideas they are referencing. Sometimes I might look something up, if I have the right books to hand. If I don't know, then (at least) that part of what you've said hasn't communicated with me, but there's no rule that says I'm the audience that has to be addressed. There are very many people who know far more than me here, and if you want good talk about Gramsci, you're obviously far better off talking to them than to me anyway. If you wanted to discuss some individual idea of Gramsci's, you've excluded some people who might have had something interesting to say, which seems less desirable all round (that's still far from being something to complain about, I should emphasise). Obviously intelligence doesn't perfectly correlate with knowledge of Gramsci.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Saturday, 24 May 2003 22:07 (twenty-one years ago) link

"Amused by the strawman metaphor of classroom/hallway in the piece you included; I couldn't think of a more perfect example of the intellectual inferiority complex which subsumes so much rock criticism, and the use of such a whining sub-fratboy american highschool image was the finishing touch. I agree with him that print is more powerful than music to alter self, except that it has always been so."

haha (esskay), Sunday, 25 May 2003 10:28 (twenty-one years ago) link

Kogan needs to meet some actual 15 yearolds.

Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Sunday, 25 May 2003 11:29 (twenty-one years ago) link

[ADMIN: password-protected image link removed]

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 28 May 2003 00:31 (twenty-one years ago) link

Martin, I definitely feel some kinship to that "other group" you mention. I really like your last point about how explaining individual ideas opens up the conversation to a larger community.

Mark, I do see what you mean about the possibility of conventionally "bad" writing to contain nuggets of instinctual insight that "good" writing might obscure. My only caveat would be that writers strive for the instinctual insights rather than the confusion. If confusion results, so be it. But sometimes I get the feeling that certain writers like this willfully allusive style for its own sake.

Oops: "he lucidly explains things that I already had a instinctual grasp of" --> You don't find this valuable in itself? Or would you prefer to keep all your thoughts on an instinctual level? (Personally, I love when a writer does this; it helps me communicate my instincts to others.)

jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 28 May 2003 14:32 (twenty-one years ago) link

It's easier to say you had an "instinctual" grasp of something when it has a name. ;-)

amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 28 May 2003 14:40 (twenty-one years ago) link

three years pass...
what's wrong with anti-intellectualism?

scott seward, Monday, 19 March 2007 19:13 (seventeen years ago) link

So weird to read 2003-me arguing about this stuff.

jaymc, Monday, 19 March 2007 19:52 (seventeen years ago) link

how is this thread not about stylus? or at least their metal reviews.

GOTT PUNCH II HAWKWINDZ, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 00:33 (seventeen years ago) link

But Rockism > Popism...isnt it?

yoko0no, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 00:41 (seventeen years ago) link

2003 was not a good year for me.

da croupier, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 00:43 (seventeen years ago) link


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