Sasha on Shadow, Diplo, Eminem & Minstrelsy

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yeah i ws only talking abt crack in a real shielded way, abt crack to ppl who unfortunately might not have all fat joes records, i thot here it cld just be some vu bullshit of course, it did occur to me. still i think this, crack, its only a metaphor, shit that you, if you will, are pushin, is troubling. as if when a motherfucker hears cam equate himself w crack, if he does, its the same as cam equating himself w i dunno don juan, this allcap metaphor shit doesnt work, maybe, when the rapper and listener are different and have different agendas?

― 006 (thoia), Saturday, 23 July 2005 04:42 (twenty years ago)

That's likely true of ALL lyrics tho', no? And the glorification of bad behaviour is hardly new in pop music, right?
Still, point made.

― Forksclovetofu (Forksclovetofu), Saturday, 23 July 2005 04:53 (twenty years ago)

id be the 1st to admit say an affinity for glorification its just i dont think ppl cn straight or strait equate cam love w say loving jason pierce, wo making some unexamined assertions. im sure we cld agree that some things are true of all lyrics but my point, based on an impression, ws that dips appreciation, when its articulated, seems to be abt ignoring certain of their lyrics while isolating others, calling em bricolage

― 006 (thoia), Saturday, 23 July 2005 05:11 (twenty years ago)

haha that cld be true of all lyrical analysis then! just i find it selective in a curious way

― 006 (thoia), Saturday, 23 July 2005 05:14 (twenty years ago)

People are still missing the point that we're not getting worked up because dipset rap about crack. Its HOW they rap about it that intrigues/bothers/whatever us. And that doesn't mean that I dislike dipset's music. I don't. But I do have issues with elements of it.

And vahid, wtf is your problem with people liking music about swaggering?

― deej.., Saturday, 23 July 2005 19:38 (twenty years ago)

could someone link the Kris Exo piece on Purple Haze? Google doesn't turn anything up.

― milozauckerman (miloaukerman), Saturday, 23 July 2005 19:58 (twenty years ago)

And vahid, wtf is your problem with people liking music about swaggering?

what the fuck, asshole, what the fuck

― vahid (vahid), Saturday, 23 July 2005 19:59 (twenty years ago)

Huh? That wasn't intended to be hostile!

― deej.., Saturday, 23 July 2005 20:04 (twenty years ago)

yeah, i know. my point = swagger can be sort of lame if you're not in the mood!

― vahid (vahid), Saturday, 23 July 2005 20:10 (twenty years ago)

dj if you hate crack then you hate fun!

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Sunday, 24 July 2005 00:15 (twenty years ago)

Sterling Clover: human crack in the flesh.

― deej.., Sunday, 24 July 2005 02:11 (twenty years ago)

You realize that "human crack in the flesh" basically translates into "asshole," right?

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Sunday, 24 July 2005 02:14 (twenty years ago)

yeah crack in the flesh or really humanized or like daytoday the concept prescribed crack is so difficult for me to imagine that i cant really comment, thinkin crack is abt everything but flesh. i disagree w mike, by the way

― 006 (thoia), Sunday, 24 July 2005 02:40 (twenty years ago)

Mister six, you're on some very next shit, so very next that I am almost ceasing to understand what the fuck you are saying.

― Forksclovetofu (Forksclovetofu), Sunday, 24 July 2005 03:38 (twenty years ago)

i won't guess the personal motives of unnamed rap bloggers...but the crack epidemic hit hard and personally effected me but camron's take on it is so over-the-top and one-dimensional that it transformed it from a social problem to a personal joke. and isn't that a device of comedy/tragedy, like laughing at the void or smiling into the barrel of a gun? it's literal and metaphorical and absurd...empowering, destructive and alienating, but it also makes for really engaging ambivalence (and don't underestimate that as a drawing point). i guess that you have to weigh the issues of personal distance and class/race/ gender privilege, as well as being morally/culturally condescending vs. enabling destructive actions.

― s>c>, Sunday, 24 July 2005 08:11 (twenty years ago)

Sam you don't post on here often enough. OTM.

― deej.., Sunday, 24 July 2005 23:23 (twenty years ago)

xp yes forks i dont even remember writing that! but guess i meant i think of crack as science for gettin out of your skin

my thing is i dont think cam is that one dimensional on drugs, that even if its always heartless and fake its still appearing in and shaded by a number of contexts. i need to listen to the record again though! but i think w rap being so dense comparatively, so many lines, that its easy for ppl to poach on, here, cams non sequiturs and then to go back and revise or reduce everything he raps abt to those terms

but, sc, i like the way you highlight ambivalence cuz rap for me, theres always shit i remember v specifically and then other shit thats notional or that i suppose i sorta remember what it ws abt, what it ws like, inside every song

― 006 (thoia), Monday, 25 July 2005 00:14 (twenty years ago)

thinking back i guess purple hazes skits which im sure everyone wd jump over themselves to call horrible are enough, along w his gentility, to code everything cam says as an endorsement, as him sellin always, just i find whoevers buyin as scrambling to be buying something else

― 006 (thoia), Monday, 25 July 2005 00:44 (twenty years ago)

Fair enough. There's a lotta artistic people who either buy into or lived through some silly ass mythologies and disrespecting those myths is a lot like disrespecting their codes of belief. I just sorta shrug and try to steer myself on my own path, picking up what I like and dropping off what I don't. Cam'ron is an impressive rapper who makes bizarre logical jumps lyrically that are impressive and fun to follow ("Time to climb her: I climb behind vagina then I hymen-grind her" is insane); that's the appeal to me. The swagger is only part of it when it informs the lyrics ("You a stewardess ma? Good, I fly too").

― Forksclovetofu (Forksclovetofu), Monday, 25 July 2005 02:58 (twenty years ago)

So wait--if Diplo sold crack in particular geographic areas it would be OK for Florida to sound, uh, non-black, despite this being possibly a good thing since he himself is neither black nor a respector of black culture, whatever that is and whatever that means?

Kind of disappointed the discussion moved away from the racial characteristics of non-verbal expression and how this can be detected and toward some PMRI shit about Cam'ron making it seem cool to smoke crack. (If great tragedy can't be made into great comedy I'm packing up my things and going home.)

Does someone want to, you know, tie it all together for me?

― Eppy (Eppy), Monday, 25 July 2005 17:03 (twenty years ago)

this 'comedy = tragedy' bullshit as an excuse for white ppl to laugh at black folks problems is some of the stupidest shit i have ever seen put forth on ilm, yall know that excuse counts for minstrel shows too right?? man who wants to hear a bunch of black ppl whine about slavery when you can get the 'entertainment' of step'n fetchit eating a watermelon

― 2, Monday, 25 July 2005 17:17 (twenty years ago)

i mean just to bring it full circle and all

― 2, Monday, 25 July 2005 17:20 (twenty years ago)

"camron's take on it is so over-the-top and one-dimensional that it transformed it from a social problem to a personal joke, and isn't that a device of comedy/tragedy, like laughing at the void or smiling into the barrel of a gun?"
http://www.ulwaf.com/Site-Images/Minstrel%20Show.gif

― 2, Monday, 25 July 2005 17:36 (twenty years ago)

not sayin cam is a minstrel but maybe the audience never changed

― 2, Monday, 25 July 2005 17:37 (twenty years ago)

Can black people not laugh at black people's problems, or is that disallowed too?

― Eppy (Eppy), Monday, 25 July 2005 18:03 (twenty years ago)

And if black people can laugh at black people's problems, and black people can make jokes about their own problems, then how is a white listner supposed to react to what's clearly being presented as a joke? Nod thoughtfully and say, "Hmm, that's a very incisive comment on the racial problems that exist in America today"? We're talking about broadcasted music, not a subculture. Even if it's intended for a black audience, there's no reason to think it won't get into the dirty dirty hands of white people.

Alternately, are hip-hop artists supposed to carefully monitor the demographics of their audience and once it passes a certain percentage of white people stop being funny? I mean, in an ideal world, but...

― Eppy (Eppy), Monday, 25 July 2005 18:09 (twenty years ago)

Finally, Eminem's career arc explained.

― yuengling participle (rotten03), Monday, 25 July 2005 18:16 (twenty years ago)

im not sayin this shit to rappers im sayin it to this huge audience of rich white hipster newjacks who gobble cams dick now but dont wanna hear anybody rappin about real shit- you dont earn the right to laugh at crack jokes thru blackness or being a dealer you earn it thru actually giving a fuck about what crack does in the first place

― 2, Monday, 25 July 2005 18:16 (twenty years ago)

i dunno im bein a dick here but this shit is foul to me

― 2, Monday, 25 July 2005 18:17 (twenty years ago)

you can earn the right to laugh at something? can you lose it later?

― miccio (miccio), Monday, 25 July 2005 18:25 (twenty years ago)

are there any rich white hipster newjacks who gobble cams dick but don't wanna hear anybody rapping about real shit?

― miccio (miccio), Monday, 25 July 2005 18:26 (twenty years ago)

usually 'real shit' is even more praised than 'inventive wordplay'

― miccio (miccio), Monday, 25 July 2005 18:28 (twenty years ago)

you can earn the right to laugh at something? can you lose it later?

Sure. Never heard of a ghetto pass? (I'm only partially joking)

But, what is real even? Is "I go on a lot of vacations and hang out with models" less real than "I remember well slinging rock on the corner?" Usually the actual fact of the matter is somewhere in between anyway, so it doesn't really make a difference except in the mind of the listener eating up the projected fantasy.

― Candicissima (candicissima), Monday, 25 July 2005 18:30 (twenty years ago)

yall know what i meant by real shit dont play like this

― 2, Monday, 25 July 2005 18:35 (twenty years ago)

I'm not always sure, actually. Or at least I don't like to assume. I wish you'd use a different adjective sometimes.

― miccio (miccio), Monday, 25 July 2005 18:38 (twenty years ago)

* I've been hearing a lot of DIP SET DIP SET hate recently. Yeah, yeah... I know they're corny, the pink, the no homo, whatever.... If I want to get my party on like Andrew W.K., I don't want some teary-eyed dude crying about feeling guilty about selling cocaine and seeing his moms getting her ass beat or some Al Sharpton Jr. spouting kill-the-white-man stuff, I want Cam and some Girls Just Wanna Have Fun jawns. DIP SET DIP SET DIP SET DIP SET!

― 2, Monday, 25 July 2005 18:51 (twenty years ago)

who said that?

― miccio (miccio), Monday, 25 July 2005 19:03 (twenty years ago)

Sounds like Nick

― Candicissima (candicissima), Monday, 25 July 2005 19:06 (twenty years ago)

i agree w/ 006-

actually i wouldnt even suggest that a cam record contributes directly to a crack problem, altho i think he and we are implicated in smthng larger that does, just saying my suspicion is cam fans of the blogger persuasion are basically getting off on it, and ignoring it publicly

haha xpost- http://governmentnames.blogspot.com/2004/07/yo-dizzawgs-saturday-night-was-off.html

― 2, Monday, 25 July 2005 19:07 (twenty years ago)

Haha. The infamous parody! I knew it sounded like him.

― Candicissima (candicissima), Monday, 25 July 2005 19:11 (twenty years ago)

plumdrank: http://hotx.com/jb/joebob07-14-96/moviepic.gif
plumdrank: peep game on candyman!
HotelOpera: like woah
plumdrank: word to chicago projects where my wardrobe costs more than the standard of living
HotelOpera: guy with a hook hand, if you're ever in NJ, holla at a brother.
plumdrank: he spun mad bees in my face and nuff disembowelling

― 2, Monday, 25 July 2005 19:19 (twenty years ago)

"peep game on gas prices!" was a phrase that for some reason stuck with me to the degree that I would quote it randomly in company that would clearly have no idea what I was referring to.

― deej.., Monday, 25 July 2005 19:28 (twenty years ago)

2-
I guess throwing up pictures of minstrel shows and calling me racist is a lot easier than making an actual argument against me. Cam'ron is funny because he wants to be funny, not because we're laughing at him. And if you don't think so, then you're not listening.

And do you think cocaine is exclusively a black problem? Do you that only blacks are misogynistic? Maybe you should check some of own assumptions, anonymous.

― s>c>, Monday, 25 July 2005 22:30 (twenty years ago)

yeah i know cam is tryna be funny! and yeah some of it is funny! look- chris tucker is funny too but if you saw trent lott knee-slappin to a kkk joke in rush hour 5: eye-buggin fever, you might go hey why does he think this shit is so funny?? and when i see white middle class hipster rock dudes trippin out to cam mp3s about sellin crack to 8 yr olds or whatever that shit is how i feel too. crack is obv not a black problem, plz believe i can tell you stories bout some white and mexican crackheads in my life. but it is a black problem when black artists are sellin it to white audiences like this, about how it fits into and eventually represents black culture. i mean im from the south and if there was a fake hillbilly dude who sang jokey country songs about meth addiction or whatever gettin ate up by rich NYC white hipsters itd be fucked up too. even though there is some good jokes down here about meth addicts! just like theres good jokes about terrorist beheadings and slavery and the holocaust and what the fuck ever. i just doubt how many other facets of black life these rich white post-PC hipsters actually wanna think about besides crack sales, violence and misogyny. like, how come rock nerd/hipster white folks always choose biggie over pac? i wasnt tryna say youre a racist w/ the minstrel pic, you actually made a better point than 90% of the ppl in this thread, but cuz of that it was the best articulation of the its-just-comedy bullshit that gets thrown around. i got no problem w/ over-the-top entertainment but between all the jacked iconography and regional exoticism and nerdy messageboards and all-white parties w/ mad southern crunk jernts and nuff indie dance flava i think alot of these clued-in white kids now dont care or think about real actual black folk beyond slang, punchlines and 'entertainment'

― 2, Monday, 25 July 2005 22:59 (twenty years ago)

how do you expect me not to take that personally, 2? that like me saying that i don't mean that you're a bitch when i call you a bitch. and you assume that i'm a "middle class hipster rock dude"? i can't remember the last time i bought or even downloaded a rock album. i've dedicated about every last second of the past five years to hip hop, and in every facet of the industry. and i took a significant pay cut to do so. i don't say this to get into some credential pissing contest. i'm just saying this because your assumptions really hurt your argument. i don't wanna be your straw man, anonymous number.

and cam is misogynistic, violent, greedy, hateful and self-serving. that ain't black people. that's me, and it sounds like that's you. and that's why cam'ron equally repeals me and intrigues me. that's the ambiguity that i was speaking of.

― s>c>, Monday, 25 July 2005 23:25 (twenty years ago)

man when did i say you were a middle class hipster rock dude?!?! all i know about you is that post, and like i said i just pasted it cuz you spoke on that one idea!! look im not gonna name names but most everybody knows who im talkin about when i say this shit and its not you or even most of ilm (still busy tryna get timbaland & grime), and even in that wack community i think this kind of racial essentialism is only one part of it. but its there and you cant pretend that kinda shit does not come into play for a large part of cam's white hipster fans

― 2, Monday, 25 July 2005 23:33 (twenty years ago)

but yeah sorry for comin w/ such lazy, unfocused shit up top, i just got internet at home so im tryna swerve back into the actual explainable kinda arguments instead of dumb funny generalizations you make w/ your friends- im not sayin you or anybody here is a racist for liking dipset, just that fuckin w/ dipset wont make you NOT racist. btw what parts of the rap game do you work in?!

― 2, Monday, 25 July 2005 23:37 (twenty years ago)

haha aight one more thing, i am so tired of this comeback that somehow if you point out a racist stereotype you must buy into that shit too- dipsets crack bullshit represents black folks cuz they are black and they use this blackness in their image, not cuz all black folks are slangin rocks. its like if you say those mexican pickaninny stamps are racist and i go 'YOU THINK ALL BLACK KIDS EAT WATERMELON HUH???'. the fact that some shit is hurtful stereotypes has nothing to do w/ whether its true or not!! its just an easy gotcha to turn it around and pretend im only seeing it cuz i think that. if you ask a midwestern housewife what a crack dealer is, theyre gonna picture a black man who looks like cam (give or take the purple furs), and while most of that has to do w/ reagan and economic discrimation and the legacy of jim crow etc etc etc a tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny bit of it has to do w/ cam himself. and i got no problem w/ this when it fits into the giant multi-faced world of rap music but when i read a rap blog now i see three faces of rap on that shit- mainstream production weirdos, unrepentant crack dealers, and white emo cats. thats it. maybe kanye or com if theyre on a 90s tip but really youd be lucky at this point. "and cam is misogynistic, violent, greedy, hateful and self-serving" man if its just about that instead of blackness how come hipsters dont fuck w/ fred durst or toby keith? how come all their fav white artists are nerdy pussies but then on the rap side its cam and lil jon?? it just feels like some white folks choose a few stand-ins for black culture and usually its hilarious ghetto fuck-ups (or intentional avant garde geniuses, depending on what kind of rap blog asshole you are)

― 2, Monday, 25 July 2005 23:55 (twenty years ago)

actually i dont think the kid on the mexican stamp got a watermelon

― 2, Tuesday, 26 July 2005 00:01 (twenty years ago)

I, for one, wish the kid on the mexican stamp got a watermelon. Why for he no get a watermelon?

I want a watermelon.

― Forksclovetofu (Forksclovetofu), Tuesday, 26 July 2005 01:38 (twenty years ago)

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