"Call Me" vs. "Call Me Maybe"

^ this

not in one where it's reasonable to bring her up in a CRJ discussion, tho

It sounds to me like you're arguing that the song is both emotionally simple and complex

I think with a lot of music and in particular pop music, the song acts like a sponge which soaks up the level of meaning/resonance/nuance/application-to-yr-life-experience that you throw at it. So it's not a special feature of CMM that it works this way, and the more invested a listener is the more their enjoyment will operate on multiple levels. This is why I think that this is a bad metric for determining whether the song has merit, because a hater and a fan are, for good reasons, unlikely to find common ground.

something which I would say somebody like Robyn is far better at achieving in contemporary pop. Not that Robyn has directly figured into this discussion up to this point, but I hesitate to praise CMM for such a feat.

It's hard to compare one song against an entire ouvre, but if you choose one Robyn tune ("Be Mine" or "With Every Heartbeat" or "Dancing On My Own" or "Indestructible" or etc.) then I think they're comparable, and I don't see any strong basis for your distinction except personal preference... and the fact that across multiple albums Robyn has constructed a meta-narrative of pop-as-meaning-sponge.

One of the things Robyn does is build into pop a performed self-awareness w/r/t pop music as a locus of potential meaning, but such meaning (or the co-existence of simplicity and complexity etc.) is not contingent on self-awareness to exist. Though it's always tempting to conflate the presence of meaning with instances of self-awareness of same, which is certainly one reason for Robyn's critical success (not a complaint, I love Robyn).

fucking robyn

how many times have i heard the words "but i do like pop, i like ROBYN!!!1111" out of the lips of some tedious bore otherwise overflowing with disdain for anything they perceive as "manufactured" or "for tween girls" or whatever

i don't know why people are so caught up in "the target age" of a particular song or artist anyway? what, you can't empathise with the perspective of someone outside your own rigidly self-defined identity? that's weird to me. or maybe you're just scared of being taken for a teenage girl? lol.

I do think there's something to be said for "Be Mine" being a little more sophisticated just as poetry, as writing, even if it's not more thematically complex. And "With Every Heartbeat" is more compositionally adventurous and complex. I quite like CMM, though.

how many times have i heard the words "but i do like pop, i like ROBYN!!!1111" out of the lips of some tedious bore otherwise overflowing with disdain for anything they perceive as "manufactured" or "for tween girls" or whatever

― bitch I'm on the 242 (lex pretend), Tuesday, 26 June 2012 6:31 AM (12 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This totally doesn't surprise me at all but I've been super lucky enough to escape this IRL, else I think I'd probably dislike her too by now.

It's a good thing tears never show in the pouring rain
As if a good thing ever could make up for all the pain
There'll be no last chance, I promise to never mess it up again
Just a sweet pain of watching your back as you walk
As I'm watching you walk away
And now you're gone, there's like an echo in my head
And I remember every word you said

It's a cool thing you'll never know all the ways I tried
It's a hard thing faking a smile when I feel like I'm falling apart inside
And now you're gone, there's like an echo in my head
And I remember every word you said

And you never were and you never will be mine
No, you never were and you never will be mine

For the first time, there is no mercy in your eyes
And the cold wind's hitting my face and you're gone
And you're walking away
And I am helpless sometimes, wishing's just no good
'Cause you don't see me like I wish you would

'Cause you never were and you never will be mine
No, you never were and you never will be mine

There's a moment to seize every time that we meet
But you always keep passing me by
No, you never were and you never will be mine

I saw you at the station
You had your arm around what's-her-name
She had on that scarf I gave you
You got down to tie her laces

'Cause you never were and you never will be mine
(You looked happy and that's great)
No, you never were and you never will be mine
(I just miss you, that's all)

'Cause you never were and you never will be mine
No, you never were and you never will be mine

There's a moment to seize every time that we meet
But you have always keep passing me by
No, you never were and you never will be mine
'Cause you never were and you never will be mine
No, you never were and you never will be mine

There's a moment to seize every time that we meet
But you have always keep passing me by
No, you never were and you never will be mine

I do think there's something to be said for "Be Mine" being a little more sophisticated just as poetry, as writing, even if it's not more thematically complex.

I do love the opening couplet, but honestly if "Be Mine" wasn't a Robyn song but was the next CRJ tune I doubt that many people would be that surprised (throwback fake R&B beats would actually seem like the appropriate next trick for CRJ/her producers). It's a very similar mix of the general and the specific IMO.

as a friend recently pointed out to me, what's ironic is that the fear of pop (as seen in the comments beneath eg my fact piece on garage pop remixes) is itself the most teenage possible trait

Thank you, Gukbe. I don't fault Robyn for covering more ground than the vast majority of pop artists today.

I could compare CMM to, say, "Dancing on My Own"... and I don't think it holds up as "an interesting character telling a compelling story in a direct, efficient manner". Direct and efficient, yes; compelling story, eh, somewhat (?). Interesting character, not so much. I don't know any personal details about her after listening to the song. Ok, fine; so maybe it's not about getting to know a character, but about their worldview? Mmm, nothing terribly memorable there either. Or about how she feels about this boy? Well, I don't get much out of knowing he wears ripped jeans. Ok, so she's crushing hard. Yes, I found it! That's great. In that respect, she hits her mark. But I wouldn't say there's much more to support repeat listening for me.

Yeah, it's hard to pretend personal preference doesn't play into this. But I do think it's a perfectly legitimate way to evaluate a pop song. And I think contenderizer was OTM saying CMM "doesn't evoke much but excited good cheer".

I don't fault Robyn for covering more ground than the vast majority of pop artists today.

Literally a snapshot of me right now

http://www.myfacewhen.net/uploads/923-facepalm.gif

Stick to the topic instead of just finding quotes that you don't like ;)

i just wish we could get away from both "Robyn is better than 'mainstream pop music'" and "Robyn fans don't know anything about 'pop' music coz they're just a bunch of poser indie fuxxors"

I'd put "Call Your Girlfriend" almost up there with "Call Me Maybe" as far as great pop songs go - CMM gets an extra push though because it's popularity/viral aspects make it an exciting example of pop utopianism that is infectious and exciting.

i just wish we could get away from both "Robyn is better than 'mainstream pop music'" and "Robyn fans don't know anything about 'pop' music coz they're just a bunch of poser indie fuxxors"

agreed.

I could compare CMM to, say, "Dancing on My Own"... and I don't think it holds up as "an interesting character telling a compelling story in a direct, efficient manner".

I would concede that "Dancing On My Own" is great and nearly as good as "Call Me Maybe" and possibly a bit better than Ashlee Simpson's "Dancing Alone" even though it steals from the Ashlee tune rather egregiously.

But again I think any notion that Robyn conveys measurably more "personal details" or some greater insight into her "worldview" is pure projection on your part, and stems from the fact that you just happen to like other aspects of the song more - the fact that it's about yearning jilted love perhaps, or Robyn's vocals, or the melody, or the production, or you read the song favourably within the context of the idea of Robyn you already have in your head, or etc. or etc.

Pure projection which is utterly fine and legitimate, it's the stuff of pop fandom after all, but if you're gonna run the emperor has no clothes argument then you've at least gotta admit that you're just as guilty.

the fact that it's about yearning jilted love perhaps

this isn't quite it - it's also about being invisible, feeling alone in the middle of a crowd. I do suspect again this is why some people really like it over and above other pop, again it seems able to speak to a sense of not being able to just lose yourself in slash identify with a kind of pop rush.

I've heard both tunes played on the same dancefloor on the same night though, and they seem less far apart in that setting. Dancing to pop about love/lust in a social setting that occasions the possibility of love/lust always carries a double meaning in any event: the majority of people who lose themselves in "Call Me Maybe" in this context aren't in the midst of a crush in that moment, but they would like to be, and the majority of (the same) people who lose themselves in "Dancing on my Own" aren't in the same literal position as Robyn's character but they identify with its sense of isolation and perhaps at some level wish that their own more prosaic sense of isolation on the dancefloor was more urgently-felt. Both tunes speak to the desire to reach across a social barrier and find communion and validation, it's just that one holds out the tantalising lure of success and the other eulogises failure. But listeners to both tunes measure their own experience against the tune and perform each tune with the kind of self-distanced exaggeration that Robyn then occasionally fetishises. Hence in many senses these tunes are two sides of the same experience, and I don't really think that one is better or worse than the other.

how many times have i heard the words "but i do like pop, i like ROBYN!!!1111" out of the lips of some tedious bore otherwise overflowing with disdain for anything they perceive as "manufactured" or "for tween girls" or whatever

How many times must the rest of us put up with you divebombing Robyn on nearly every thread in which she's mentioned? The pop-hating/indie-loving asshole who makes an exception in her case is her fault how? It's not.

but I've been super lucky enough to escape this IRL

I think most of us have. It's lex's teeter-tottering defense for his Robyn hatred, that's all.

Most of us obviously haven't, since it happened in this thread.

I think the reasons irregular pop listeners gravitate towards Robyn are at least twofold (and probably more than that)...

1. Not in every song, but in several of them she approaches the story/lyric from a different or altogether new premise. If not that extreme, at least attacks standard subjects with a little extra something (to some people it seems more person, to others it seems more complex...whatever the case, many of her songs up the ante from boilerplate pop tropes).

2. Indie people may be inclined to like her, or at least notice her, because she left the major label machine and started from scratch. DIY ethos is a big deal to some, regardless of what style the artist is trafficking in. These are the people who throw the "manufactured" tag around, but they don't stop at Katy Perry or Beyonce. They do it for EVERY artist who shifts big numbers.

*seems more personAL

or whether you imagine yourself as one or the other

― nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Tuesday, 26 June 2012 01:37 (7 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

actually i think in my case it is actually this - i definitely identify with CRJ in this song, rather than mr (or ms????) ripped-jean-skin-showin

That said, everyone I know IRL that even knows who Robyn is also listens to a lot of other pop and r&b as well as rock and whatever else. I'm sorry you guys are surrounded by idiots.

haven't listened much to robyn in the past couple of years ;_;

by the way, i'm not really making the argument for CMM being all that deep or profound - i never knew what 75% of the lyrics were until i'd heard it five times a day for like three weeks, a level of exposure that most people probably won't get; what i think vaults it into a truly great song is how the lyrics actually reward knowing what they are - the complexity's there if you want it, and if you don't, it's still ridiculously fun to realize it's just come on the radio

the fear of pop (as seen in the comments beneath eg my fact piece on garage pop remixes) is itself the most teenage possible trait

truth bomb

eh, regardless of how people in comments sections act, there's nothing inherently immature about being skeptical/hostile towards pop music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTpIHph07Mo

Seriously, though, the strings in "Call Me Maybe:" is that a sample, or was that hook written for the song?

it's not nicked from a classical recording or anything, if that's what you mean. sounds like a synth patch to me.

there's nothing inherently immature about being skeptical/hostile towards pop music.

Skepticism is a virtue, period. But pop music isn't a genre.

never said it was. it's an institution.

it is kind of funny that everyone* loves Robyn to death because she's a miserable gloomy mess covered in glitter and Pop Rocks

I don't see how that makes her any more or less authentic than CRJ, who is a bundle of delighted nerves covered in glitter and Pop Rocks

* this word was specifically chosen to drive Lex insane

I thought the word that did that was "angular".

the angular string motif that pops up on the refrain of "Call Me Maybe"

i don't know why people are so caught up in "the target age" of a particular song or artist anyway? what, you can't empathise with the perspective of someone outside your own rigidly self-defined identity? that's weird to me. or maybe you're just scared of being taken for a teenage girl? lol.

I can empathise with "Party in the USA" or "Never Say Never" too, it doesn't mean I have to like them

looking back, I am not even sure what "angular" was meant to signify in musical terms, and it's something I used to say constantly

I guess I was feeling too good for "jagged" or something

I first heard "angular" around the time when "post-modern music" was said with straight faces by deejays.

There is such a thing as postmodernism, Alfred!

as a synonym for "college rock"?

Only if it's postmodern, I guess!

i forget who said this, but there's a quote i ran across recently: people who say they aren't misogynists mean women their own age; go 20 years in either direction and the story changes.

but does anyone on ILX listen to music marketed to tween boys? some dude excepted.

I like a lot of Green Day and Linkin Park

also Awolnation

I still listen to The Cure.

it's an interesting question. idk if hardrock/chartrock/poppunk stuff is as strongly coded to age.

there are also a bunch of ppl on the boards who will defend Rick Ross and Soulja Boy

ppl even dig Drake and Chris Brown

but does anyone on ILX listen to music marketed to tween boys? some dude excepted.

― mississippi joan hart (crüt), Tuesday, June 26, 2012 11:46 AM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark

most of ILM, dude

people on this board have such an asinine, self-serving idea of how what i listen to is different from what they listen to