vahid's attitude itt = "u guys had your fun with this 'popism' lark but we all know serious dude music is the only type that can be taken seriously and all this girly stuff is OBVIOUSLY dogshit RIGHT" and as such a million times more reprehensible than kitty pryde
― liberté, égalité, beyoncé (lex pretend), Sunday, 13 May 2012 10:33 (twelve years ago) link
lex you are not a woman
― Melissa W, Sunday, 13 May 2012 10:46 (twelve years ago) link
this thing you do where you co-opt the rage women feel at the fact that female musicians are usually dismissed as artists to defend whatever random pop song you're into this week is nagl
― Melissa W, Sunday, 13 May 2012 10:47 (twelve years ago) link
that isn't what i do, here or elsewhere
but if you're fine with the "OBVIOUSLY this is horseshit and we don't even need to argue why because it's OBVIOUS" line being peddled by vahid itt i guess that's ok?
― liberté, égalité, beyoncé (lex pretend), Sunday, 13 May 2012 10:49 (twelve years ago) link
That's not a good look either. And also not my point. My point is that the way you rep for female artists verges on feminist rage puppetry sometimes.
― Melissa W, Sunday, 13 May 2012 10:52 (twelve years ago) link
i think that's really inaccurate and given how little our paths cross on ilx i'd also hazard a guess you don't really know what you're talking about w/r/t me. i rep for artists i enjoy.
― liberté, égalité, beyoncé (lex pretend), Sunday, 13 May 2012 10:54 (twelve years ago) link
The fact that you rep for artists you enjoy in this particular way is exactly the issue here. I'm really tired of seeing you (and yes, I have seen you frequently) using this line of argument with people like Kitty Pryde when it's not something that you can actually be invested in the way I am or any other woman is. If your issue is that you think Kitty Pryde has quality that's being dismissed, then talk about that quality. You, as a man, really shouldn't be using this "she's being dismissed for being a girl" reasoning unless someone is being blatantly sexist about her. It's otherwise up to her female fans to call out sexism, frankly. Otherwise it reads like you are using the politics and rage of issues that don't belong to you to defend your taste.
― Melissa W, Sunday, 13 May 2012 11:06 (twelve years ago) link
telling anyone not to call out sexism because it's not an issue which "belongs to them" is the thing that's really not a good look imo
― liberté, égalité, beyoncé (lex pretend), Sunday, 13 May 2012 11:11 (twelve years ago) link
vahid's attitude itt = "u guys had your fun with this 'popism' lark but we all know serious dude music is the only type that can be taken seriously and all this girly stuff is OBVIOUSLY dogshit RIGHT" and as such a million times more reprehensible than kitty pryde― liberté, égalité, beyoncé (lex pretend), Sunday, May 13, 2012 10:33 AM (37 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― liberté, égalité, beyoncé (lex pretend), Sunday, May 13, 2012 10:33 AM (37 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
I control-f'd for examples of this but couldn't find??
― Tim F, Sunday, 13 May 2012 11:24 (twelve years ago) link
well people didn't literally say that
― abcfsk, Sunday, 13 May 2012 11:26 (twelve years ago) link
This seemed pretty true to me albeit hardly truth-bomb true:
think it's okay to criticize music made by teenagers for being teenage, i think it's pretty clear that there's stuff "for kids" that reflects themes adults can relate to (finding nemo) and stuff "for kids" that's just bullshit for small minds (gi joe), similarly i think there's stuff by teenagers that has depth and stuff that doesn'tthe idea that teenagers shouldn't be judged by adult standards is just ... teenage― the late great, Sunday, May 13, 2012 12:08 AM (11 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
the idea that teenagers shouldn't be judged by adult standards is just ... teenage
― the late great, Sunday, May 13, 2012 12:08 AM (11 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Of course I am an adult who relates to themes expressed in the teenage-era music of Ashlee Simpson, Taylor Swift et. al. Maybe vahid would say I've gotten him wrong? I don't know what he thinks about teenpop.
― Tim F, Sunday, 13 May 2012 11:27 (twelve years ago) link
who am i to say my dog shouldn't eat his own poop? after all, he has radically different criteria than me.
― the late great, Sunday, May 13, 2012 12:16 AM (11 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
what did churchill say?
"if you're young and rockist you don't have a heart, if you're old and popist you don't have a brain"
― the late great, Sunday, May 13, 2012 12:19 AM (11 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― liberté, égalité, beyoncé (lex pretend), Sunday, 13 May 2012 11:42 (twelve years ago) link
oh i didn't realise you were counting empty trolling.
― Tim F, Sunday, 13 May 2012 11:43 (twelve years ago) link
if i didn't count empty trolling why would i even talk about vahid
― liberté, égalité, beyoncé (lex pretend), Sunday, 13 May 2012 11:45 (twelve years ago) link
I think the first comment makes more sense in context though.
It's right to say that teenpop (and other teen-made popular music) that succeeds does so on the basis of the same kind of criteria as anything else. It cannot be excused or dismissed on the basis that teenagers' brains are different.
I simply don't buy that adults can't relate to the experience of being a teenager. Sure, a lot of them don't want to, but that's a different thing.
I don't think it's fundamentally different to the way a lot of people talk about rom-coms. The role of age as some kind of cultural barrier is way overrated.
― Tim F, Sunday, 13 May 2012 11:50 (twelve years ago) link
I don't understand how contenderizer can't see that his "this is by and for teenage girl culture" argument falls apart with "1,600 twitter followers"
― thommys got bendz (Whiney G. Weingarten), Sunday, 13 May 2012 11:54 (twelve years ago) link
if someone just started becoming famous literally less than a week ago then pulling up "statistics" that "prove" who their audience is or how big it is or will be is pretty ridiculous
― some dude, Sunday, 13 May 2012 12:01 (twelve years ago) link
1,701 followers now ;)
― Number None, Sunday, 13 May 2012 12:03 (twelve years ago) link
^famous
― thommys got bendz (Whiney G. Weingarten), Sunday, 13 May 2012 12:18 (twelve years ago) link
i still don't quite understand why understanding something's importance to "teen culture" and still thinking it's water-weak bullshit are incompatible ideas to hold at the same time.
ftr i have no real aesthetic or sociological opinion about tumblr rapper kitty pryde.
― jesus christ (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Sunday, 13 May 2012 13:21 (twelve years ago) link
this whoel thing is very much https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7zFFmk80w4
― dayo, Sunday, 13 May 2012 13:34 (twelve years ago) link
caramanica always throws off the hype cycle
― max, Sunday, 13 May 2012 13:59 (twelve years ago) link
god damn i love Atom. he did one of my favourite shows ever back in the day. can we just turn this thread into an Atom youtubes one please? ok
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynFEQdh9hpg&feature=related
― Jamie_ATP, Sunday, 13 May 2012 14:00 (twelve years ago) link
i interview atom and the package for a friends zine once
― max, Sunday, 13 May 2012 14:03 (twelve years ago) link
meanwhile the "cracker might be the police" has been intermittently stuck in my head for the past 24 hrs.
― sarahell, Saturday, May 12, 2012 11:14 PM (Yesterday)
the best is when you can employ the phrase irl
― diamanda ram dass (Edward III), Sunday, 13 May 2012 17:03 (twelve years ago) link
you know lex, that's not what i'm saying at all, and i'm sorry if i offended you by casually using you as an example, it was insensitive and to be honest it was not even about you. that said, i recall your advocacy of the paris hilton album on ILM as the point that i started to not be on board w/ popism anymore and i really started to feel like supporting particular stuff just to make a populist critical statement was actually a thing, not that i'm saying i have proof that's what you were up to, but just that i started to suspect that this might be lurking just under the surface of the nylpm "everything is great!" stance.
though i could just as easily have picked, for example, the village voice crew and their advocacy of certain country acts as a thing too. or, more to the point, i could have picked myself, because i used to give a big pass to a wide swath of rather crappy commercial dance hits on more or less the same grounds (though i still stand by some of those choices).
and to be really really clear, the dogshit line has nothing to do with comparing music by girls to dogshit, or even kitty pryde's music. to be honest, i haven't even listened to a single kitty pryde track, and if you scan through here i haven't even said anything about her music. i'm just saying that the argument that "oh, well other people have different criteria than you so you can't judge" is a lame argument that can easily be taken to stupid extremes.
i could just as easily have said something like "oh well, skrewdriver fans have their own criteria, only racist skinheads can truly judge its merit" but as we all know bringing up nazis is rather overdone and anyway i spent most of yesterday playing with my dog so it was on my mind.
― the late great, Sunday, 13 May 2012 17:15 (twelve years ago) link
well, that's not true, i've looked at some of the typed-up lyrics and gone "UH"
― the late great, Sunday, 13 May 2012 17:17 (twelve years ago) link
but that's not something i do only with female teenage rappers
― the late great, Sunday, 13 May 2012 17:18 (twelve years ago) link
nyt is really ahead of the curve this year
― flopson, Sunday, 13 May 2012 17:22 (twelve years ago) link
i mean i realize that i get your goat a lot lex so how about i just lean on other posters who don't to explain what i've been trying to get at
ftr i have no real aesthetic or sociological opinion about tumblr rapper kitty pryde - strongo
and
It's right to say that teenpop (and other teen-made popular music) that succeeds does so on the basis of the same kind of criteria as anything else. It cannot be excused or dismissed on the basis that teenagers' brains are different - tim
and something deej said upthread about not overly romanticizing the mystical qualities of being a teenager
if you're curious tim, as far as teen-pop goes i'm not sure i like anything that only teens and particularly daring critics like so i don't really know what teen-pop means. as whiney astutely pointed out, teen-pop in america is as likely to mean screamo or glam metal as it does the r&b-type stuff that a lot of ilm posters are into. i really like lady gaga and destiny's child but i'm not sure those count, can't say i'm much into yr disney channel stuff like miley cyrus and selena gomez
― the late great, Sunday, 13 May 2012 17:30 (twelve years ago) link
"so i don't really know" should be "and i don't really know"
as far as my trolling on this thread goes i think its an appropriate corrective to the "use big words" and "act really cerebral and condescending" strategy
― the late great, Sunday, 13 May 2012 17:33 (twelve years ago) link
i'll admit that the genres i do like are dominated by serious dudes, but much like the field i work in (math and science education) i don't think women are under-represented in those fields because there's something about those fields that is intrinsically opposed to women
or to look at it another way, looking at a field where women are over-represented in higher education (national literatures), i don't think you can say it's because national literatures represent the interests of women more than science and engineering
i think that line of argument often gets pushed w/r/t music and i think it's dumb
― the late great, Sunday, 13 May 2012 17:46 (twelve years ago) link
this is otm, and my approach itt has reflected the fact that i personally can't relate - along with my realization that what keeps me out is precisely the convincingly articulated teen-girl-ness that's so obviously KP's initial hook point as a tumblr-blip novelty act. the tone of voice, cadence, subject matter, attitude and language repel me not because they're "bad" (they aren't), but because they're irritating to me in same way that actual teenagers are. my initial response was outright dismissal: "what the fuck is this bullshit?"
after rejecting KP, i was brought up short by the "tommy cantwell" lines that johnny crunch posted (and the lyrics of "justin beiber" on rapgenius). they aren't brilliant by any means, but they're more clever and self-aware than i'd initially assumed. this realization didn't incline me to become a kitty pryde fan, but it did make me think about the fact that we often use the language of "quality" to describe cultural affinities and oppositions. this can seem to make sense when we and the artists in question seem to share cultural values, when the playing field is mutually understood, but it doesn't work anywhere near so well when the cultural gaps are large. rockism fails because not all music can or should be evaluated by a single set of standards.
― 10. “Pour Some Sugar On Me” – Tom Cruise (contenderizer), Sunday, 13 May 2012 18:25 (twelve years ago) link
i guess i'm more interested in saying how art does or doesn't work (and according to what standards) than in simply passing judgment: "this is shit" vs "this is great" or w/e.
We let fashion magazines run rap media & let fashion labels distribute rap LPs, then act shocked when skinny white girls are the hot new rappersAnd caucasian women who CAN actually rap [youtube.com/watch?v=FxZbpb…] get NO ATTENTION because they don't look like American Apparel models― thommys got bendz (Whiney G. Weingarten), Thursday, May 10, 2012 1:21 PM (3 days ago)
And caucasian women who CAN actually rap [youtube.com/watch?v=FxZbpb…] get NO ATTENTION because they don't look like American Apparel models
― thommys got bendz (Whiney G. Weingarten), Thursday, May 10, 2012 1:21 PM (3 days ago)
i suspect that a lot of KP-hate arises from exactly this kind of thinking, from assumptions about the reasons behind her momentary small-pond "celebrity". i don't fault those assumptions, necessarily. it seems to me that whiney's making a valid point, even as he deliberately sidesteps the things that might be interesting about KP as an individual and an instance. note, however, that his criticism has little to do with KP herself. instead it focuses mostly how she's supposedly perceived by others.
― 10. “Pour Some Sugar On Me” – Tom Cruise (contenderizer), Sunday, 13 May 2012 18:44 (twelve years ago) link
― some dude, Sunday, May 13, 2012 7:01 AM (6 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
but isnt this exactly the problem, how she's becoming famous
at a certain tipping point, exposure = famous
― man down (D-40), Sunday, 13 May 2012 18:58 (twelve years ago) link
I have more followers than kittypryde, if anyone wants to interview me about subverting the dominant paradigm of hip hop my just hit me up via ilx mail
― Bandersnatch Cumberbund (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Sunday, 13 May 2012 19:00 (twelve years ago) link
― man down (D-40), Sunday, May 13, 2012 2:58 PM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark
that has nothing to do with what my post was actually about, but sure ok
― some dude, Sunday, 13 May 2012 19:09 (twelve years ago) link
well, i was saying that's why it makes sense to bring up 1600 twitter followers, im calling into question its newsworthiness
― man down (D-40), Sunday, 13 May 2012 19:28 (twelve years ago) link
whiney's assertion was that the statement of "this is by and for teenage girl culture" is negated by her having only 1600 followers and not more, i thought that was silly, you're on some other shit and i'm not interested, go on without me.
― some dude, Sunday, 13 May 2012 19:31 (twelve years ago) link
i'd still think it was of and for teens even if no one but kitty pryde ever heard it. that's just my take though.
― 10. “Pour Some Sugar On Me” – Tom Cruise (contenderizer), Sunday, 13 May 2012 19:37 (twelve years ago) link
note, however, that his criticism has little to do with KP herself. instead it focuses mostly how she's supposedly perceived by others.
This is pretty much all Whiney ever does, at least on ILM (I don't read Spin - a magazine that puts Waka Flocka Flame on the cover is not courting me as a reader). I'm not even sure he's actually capable of listening to a record and forming his own opinions about it anymore, if he ever was; his obsession with zinging others for having the "wrong" opinions (especially when those others are pretty much demographically identical to him) has withered any critical faculties he might once have possessed.
― 誤訳侮辱, Sunday, 13 May 2012 19:37 (twelve years ago) link
mc kitty barman
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Sunday, 13 May 2012 19:43 (twelve years ago) link
Oh, and full disclosure: I pitched Whiney a feature on Emmure; it was rejected. So fire away w/accusations of hypocrisy and/or bitterness if you wanna.
― 誤訳侮辱, Sunday, 13 May 2012 20:11 (twelve years ago) link
this contenderizer might be the police
― The Reverend, Sunday, 13 May 2012 20:17 (twelve years ago) link
It?s a respect issue; growing up in Queens, NY you either have to kill or be killed. EMMURE have embraced this ideology and have grown stronger as a result. However, instead of taking out their aggressions in negative ways, they channeled their collective angst into their music to create a propulsive blend of unabashed aggression and intensity that the youth across the world embrace with open arms
big lols
― the late great, Sunday, 13 May 2012 20:18 (twelve years ago) link
these guys look like half the shitty rap crews in seattle
― The Reverend, Sunday, 13 May 2012 20:20 (twelve years ago) link
xps maybe its because you have horrible taste & opinions about music??
― flopson, Sunday, 13 May 2012 20:21 (twelve years ago) link
You don't understand Emmure until you possess pure hate for that fucking cheating slut in your life.UnpopularPoppy 6 days ago 14
manure
― buzza, Sunday, 13 May 2012 20:22 (twelve years ago) link
haha, a band i can be glad not to understand!
― The Reverend, Sunday, 13 May 2012 20:23 (twelve years ago) link