Nicki Minaj - Pink Friday

I think pop audiences are pretty used to "crazy" or even just "odd", and for the most part it doesn't faze them.

The "problem" with "Stupid Hoe" and "Massive Attack", and "Beez in the Trap" for that matter (and I love all three), is not that they're too crazy but that they're not singalong efforts in the way that, say, "Work It" or "Milkshake" were - sure they've got memorable hooks but not really in a singalong manner.

Whereas I think a very very large proportion of rap crossover hits in any era rely on a sung chorus to really connect with a massive audience, albeit using a variety of different approaches.

A lot of the appeal of "Super Bass" is similar to "Work It", the shifts between crazy verses and memorable chorus in particular.

Whereas I think a very very large proportion of rap crossover hits in any era rely on a sung chorus to really connect with a massive audience

missy herself might be the #1 way to disprove this - as astounding as "get ur freak on" is, it's not because of its chorus. "work it" has a catchier chorus but again that's not where the appeal is.

"getcha freak on getcha freak on getcha freak on" vs "you a stupid hoe you a stupid hoe you a stupid hoe stupid stupid"

I was going to note that "Get Ur Freak On" is a pretty startling exception. I did say "a very very large proportion", not "every"!

I agree re "Work It" but years of hearing it played in clubs or at house parties has confirmed for me that typically half the people rap along to the verses as well as the choruses, and other half just jump in at the choruses.

Obviously having great verses makes the songs more appealing to everyone but I think a large amount of general listeners most of the time need a memorable chorus as well.

Missy's an interesting example actually because she kind of demonstrates same dynamic in a less extreme form:

- "The Rain" doesn't really have a chorus - it got to 51 on the general US charts but number 1 on the US rap charts.

- "She's A Bitch" is kind of an equivalent to "Stupid Hoe" - it crashed at 90 on the charts (19 US rap charts).

- "Hot Boyz" went platinum and peaked at 5 on the charts (and 1 on the rap charts). It's her biggest hit still, but is really R&B. Fabulous chorus obviously.

- "Get Ur Freak On" got to 7 and was her biggest crossover rap tune at that time (if you count "Hot Boyz" as R&B) - but only got to 7 on the rap charts. It also didn't go gold.

- "Work It" got to 2 on the charts (1 on rap charts) but didn't go gold.

- Missy's biggest rap hit was "Lose Control" which got to number 3 and went gold - and has a big singalong chorus. BUT it only got to 3 on the US rap charts.

I should stress that I'm not trying to defend the taste of people who require hip hop to have sung choruses.

missy's entire career was basically an outlier in terms of both the sounds she got on the charts and her image, right? and i guess what this nicki hand-wringing is about is the desire for her also to be a successful outlier rather than pushing the envelope in some areas and then capitulating in others. or maybe she genuinely does like shitty pop, who knows.

possibly more pressure put on popular female rappers to "change the game" in a way that no male rapper, crossover or not, is asked to do?

I get the feeling that if Nicki pitched to the middle ground of the Pink Friday bonus tracks more often she'd have a much more satisfying career all round really. I dunno, in 2012 is it *that* hard to have credible hip-hop that also works as amazing pop music or is it just a failure of imagination of all concerned?

I get the feeling that if Nicki pitched to the middle ground of the Pink Friday bonus tracks more often she'd have a much more satisfying career all round really

actually, this is why i'm so satisfied with PF:RR not pitching to any middle ground - she goes to extremes in both directions, perhaps understanding that "super bass" was kind of accidental genius that can't be deliberately recreated (telling that the actual attempt to recreate it here, "va va voom", is just kinda okay whereas the accidental genius occurs on "gun shot").

I'm not suggesting rewriting Super Bass again and again - Gun Shot is the best thing here because it avoids the annoying polarisation of the rest of the record, also it's a wonderful song with actual competent songwriting unlike the rest of the pop tracks here.

Yeah I'd have been super happy if she'd tried her hand at a few more "Muny" or "Wave Ya Hand" style tracks.

missy's entire career was basically an outlier in terms of both the sounds she got on the charts and her image, right?

agree with this of course

Not that I'm unhappy with Roman Reloaded - it's def. better than the first album.

Also I'm less sure that it's a case of 'accidental genius' and more that Nicki doesn't know where her strengths lie wrt pop music. It's less a case of asking her to recreate a great pop moment and more a case of not giving a free pass to the sort of shonky toss that passes for pop music here.

hmm "wave ya hand" and "muny", good as they are, don't really do what j0rdan (and the rest of us i guess) are wanting nicki to do - they're fairly ordinary pop beats (that tbh still suffer from the over-stuffed tinniness that 99% of pop beats have in the past few years) elevated by nicki's charisma rather than nicki matching the beats in craziness.

also it's worth remembering that while most of us itt and most critics are (correctly) repelled by shit like "starships", it's actually a massive fucking hit - nicki's first solo top 3 hit in the UK - and the people sustaining nicki's megastardom are actually REALLY INTO her pop side as it currently stands.

i mean i can't really get over that. "stupid hoe", which was actually the intended lead single - total flop. "starships" - the desperate generic crap tossed out when "stupid hoe" flopped - gigantic hit. i absolutely blame the pop climate and the pop audience.

I love it when Lex gets rockist about the failings of the pop audience.

lol but my favourite singles of the year are a) at #1 and #2 in the charts, b) by carly rae jepsen and justin bieber

IT GETS BETTER

wrong thread I know, but I'm still appalled that I like that fucking Bieber song

i'm appalled that you like it too :(

havent got the time or the will to properly sentence this up, just gonna stream of consciousness it so caveat lector

think the same way that hooks and loud mastering has to *pop* on radio immediately these days so the artist's personality is way more upfront and centre foregrounded in your face than the music. weird kind of bifurcation between singer and song where people demand more crazy than ever from the singer but are happy to remain within a generic shorthand musically. listen to the big missy charisma cuts compared to nu nicki and the songs are *flatter* in this regard, missy darts in and among her music and the persona is illustrated and tied far more in with it. there's greater unity in all the elements, less distance between foreground and background stagewise

(think this is true of many things now besides just straight pop btw, cf rick ross (the rap lana del ray) or trey songz or whoever really)

if we take 'gunshot', it's a song far more in tune with the structure and grain of music as we grew up with, but it's obvious that it's a great poppy song, or "pop" song, rather than it is an ACTUAL pop song. listen to the radio for 20 minutes then put 'gun shot' on and it's comparatively drab and seems to take forever to get going, pleasant enough but the payoff is way too far down the line

i mean tbh i'm trying to talk on a level here but i'm really struggling and more than a little frightened if people can't understand why 'starships' is a hit and 'stupid hoe' isnt, or are imagining that nicki over 'slave 4 u' isnt a completely absurd idea and that they could ever somehow be compatible

oh lol ok that seemed to come out how i usually write anyway nm

lol

I finally broke down and started this up on Spotify

is it weird that so far every song sounds like the first track of an EP rather than the next song on an album? does that even make sense?

wait till you get to the middle

http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2iwfwDAyl1qadkc8o1_500.gif

possibly more pressure put on popular female rappers to "change the game" in a way that no male rapper, crossover or not, is asked to do?

― liberté, égalité, beyoncé (lex pretend), Tuesday, April 17, 2012 5:14 AM (6 hours ago) Bookmark

there's probably some truth to this, but i think there was equal pressure on wayne after his mixtapes started blowing up and "lollipop" and "a milli" were two pretty good stabs at "changing the game"

phew, at least the song with Chris Brown on it is terrible

there's probably some truth to this, but i think there was equal pressure on wayne after his mixtapes started blowing up and "lollipop" and "a milli" were two pretty good stabs at "changing the game"

"lollipop"?! i distinctly remember the initial reaction to that being "uhhhh is that it?" given how generically like everything else around at the time it was

(still good, mind, hardly game-changing though)

hahaha okay so the appearance of Chris Brown was the signal that the album was about to become tediously unbearable I guess

okay does anyone like "Pound The Alarm" because if so you should really be ashamed of yourself

"Lollipop" was a huge record but it always was and will continue to be divisive in a way that, say, "Super Bass" isn't

i'm not going to get all hyperbolic and say this is the worst album of the year, but there is no other 2012 album i have been more afraid to sit down and give a 2nd complete listen to. the thought of spending another hour of my life that way is genuinely repulsive.

^^^ I was expecting this reaction, which is why I hadn't played it. It was super surprising to me that I was actually into the first part of the album but the stretch from "Right By My Side" through "Automatic" has been forgettable at best and, at its worst, really fucking horrible.

"Beautiful Sinner" seems like a breath of fresh air in comparison for the first 40 seconds, which given how it goes into the chorus is really kind of pathetic.

also jesus christ how long is this fucking thing

well, pretty mcuh everyone has said it starts good and goes down hill in the middle. my problem is i didn't even like the beginning that much.

man that stretch of the album really does hammer home for me that "Turn Me On" is a much, much better effort for that type of song than the things that surround it

I kept "Come on a Cone" and "Hov Lane" and a couple others but I knew I was in trouble when replaying "Roman's Holiday" last week all I wanted to do was kill puppies.

i wanna love "hov lane" but that's one of the laziest choruses i've heard this year

I'm not completely sold on hov lane - it wants to bang, but it doesn't sound quite harsh enough

"hov lane" is real whatever. all the interchangeable jokes about bitches being her sons have serious diminishing returns.

also like i said earlier i still get salty that that song doesn't go full mannie fresh

- "Get Ur Freak On" got to 7 and was her biggest crossover rap tune at that time (if you count "Hot Boyz" as R&B) - but only got to 7 on the rap charts. It also didn't go gold.

- "Work It" got to 2 on the charts (1 on rap charts) but didn't go gold.

The fact that they didn't go gold has nothing to do with their popularity and everything to do with when they came out, during the time between when CD singles were phased out of US markets and the rise of itunes.

Basically no singles went gold during that time except for American Idol-related stuff that wasn't getting airplay and only charting because of CD single sales. It was an all or nothing proposition.

Well the charting positions are still pretty indicative.

(think this is true of many things now besides just straight pop btw, cf rick ross (the rap lana del ray)

you can't just put this out there.

I can confirm that it is really fucking embarrassing when you accidentally play the opening to Roman Holiday off your phone in the office and you're scrambling and failing to turn it off while actually on your desk phone to someone else.

Well the charting positions are still pretty indicative.

That "Work It" was her biggest hit?

(think this is true of many things now besides just straight pop btw, cf rick ross (the rap lana del ray)

rick ross as lana del rey seemed a bit obvious to me for an rtc opinion4u, lol

lol matt dc

i feel pretty embarrassed when i play 'roman holiday' alone on headphones

haha I thought the Rick Ross as Lana del Rap thing was brilliant whether an opinion4u or not

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