Ha, I just started reading Distinction, knowingly only the condensed version via critics like Carl Wilson.
xp Verging-on-sycophantic agreement with Tim. Not just about the first-half-of-Mulholland-Drive comparison, which I wrote about during an EOY discussion but the importance of persona. One thing people who "expose" her Lizzy Grant past ignore is how blatantly she foregrounds the LDR character - her debut is called Lana Del Rey (AKA Lizzy Grant). That's not hiding anything. And in Q she compares the LDR character to an art project. A very consistent one too, at least on record (on SNL the gap between the person and the persona yawned dangerously wide). In almost every song I've heard she remains sexually passive, hung up on bad boys, and only in National Anthem is there a suggestion that she's using this to manipulate a man, but then that song is so jaundiced about sex, money and celebrity that it's hardly empowering. Much though I agree with Maura that there's a misogynist streak to some of the attacks on her (notably HRO), I can see feminists getting just as angry with her. How much she can get away with by saying LDR is just a character with retrograde sexual politics I'm not sure.
― Science, you guys. Science. (DL), Wednesday, 18 January 2012 13:51 (twelve years ago) link
you guys are really thinking about this! LDR close readings! i had no idea...
― scott seward, Wednesday, 18 January 2012 14:14 (twelve years ago) link
still think an acting coach could really help her out.
Slightly OT but I think it's a bad idea to use HRO to attack critics of any type. Its whole raison d'etre is to be inappropriate + irreverent.
― Mordy, Wednesday, 18 January 2012 14:20 (twelve years ago) link
her debut is called Lana Del Rey (AKA Lizzy Grant).
rly? :( if so
― Θ ̨Θƪ (sic), Wednesday, 18 January 2012 14:35 (twelve years ago) link
not only would it make an interesting essay but it already has!
http://www.amazon.com/Distinction-Social-Critique-Judgement-Introductions/dp/0674212770
I want you to know that I really did say "wow, I should read that" unironically to myself when I saw this
― unlistenable in philly (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Wednesday, 18 January 2012 14:37 (twelve years ago) link
xp By which I mean the 2009 debut that nobody heard at the time, not the new one, which is called Born to Die.
― Science, you guys. Science. (DL), Wednesday, 18 January 2012 14:44 (twelve years ago) link
Yeah, I managed to find a zip. not sure if it actually existed, ever, as a CD release.
― Mark G, Wednesday, 18 January 2012 14:44 (twelve years ago) link
tbh I would care a lot more about her if her songs were all covers of tracks off of Ready To Die
― Bam! Orgasm explosion in your facehole. (DJP), Wednesday, 18 January 2012 14:46 (twelve years ago) link
'w/r/t sexiness, it's obvious to me that the submissiveness/passivity/helplessness that del rey plays in the song goes hand in hand with a certain idea of sexiness, and the song makes it quite clear that it's just an idea of sexiness, one that's as helpful to the narrator as the passive helplessness. whether the listener actually finds it sexy is neither here nor there.'
this is kind of the central thing about 'off to the races', I think.
― akm, Wednesday, 18 January 2012 15:43 (twelve years ago) link
whatshername from mad men should make a record. don draper's wife. she'd be better at it.
― scott seward, Wednesday, 18 January 2012 15:51 (twelve years ago) link
LDR should arrange to get into a car accident while on pills + wearing an evening gown w/ a toy dog in her purse, it would help with the authenticity thing
― the boy with the gorn at his side (Edward III), Wednesday, 18 January 2012 16:06 (twelve years ago) link
― scott seward, Wednesday, January 18, 2012 10:51 AM (19 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
this is a good call, especially since January Jones is basically the only person to do worse on the SNL stage than LDR the last couple years
― Whitechocolatespacecase (some dude), Wednesday, 18 January 2012 16:11 (twelve years ago) link
is that her name? that's a great name. she doesn't even have to change it.
― scott seward, Wednesday, 18 January 2012 16:21 (twelve years ago) link
wonder if the lex has ever heard this song? still makes me swoon...*sigh*. bums me out too. in a good way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgkw47HLxH8&feature=related
― scott seward, Wednesday, 18 January 2012 16:27 (twelve years ago) link
memo to str8 dudes: just because a female performer sings and performs ideas of sexiness in her work does not mean that "does this give me a boner" should be your litmus test of whether she's any good as an artist. it's not about YOU.
― irina-camelia begu (lex pretend), Wednesday, January 18, 2012 3:01 AM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
ffs, "be less smug" indeed. i don't think that either LDR or "video games" is particularly sexy. that passive, needy, "wounded bird" thing has never done much for me, personally. it is, however, a very common form of erotic appeal. i think that we can easily recognize it even if we don't feel it. as a comparison, i recognize the erotic appeal embodied in sting's music, persona and imagery despite the fact that it doesn't arouse me in the least.
we can't ever know an artist's underlying intent with perfect accuracy, but we can observe the ways in which familiar devices are employed in their work and draw general conclusions. i'm simply saying that i see in LDR's songs and videos the attempt to construct a persona with a particular erotic/romantic appeal. consciously or unconsciously, gay or straight, male or female, most pop stars attempt something similar. the nature of the constructed appeal, of course, differs radically from individual to individual.
― Little GTFO (contenderizer), Wednesday, 18 January 2012 16:37 (twelve years ago) link
half-baked idea alert: I don't like invoking this kind of thing but I suspect that this aspect of the song would make intuitive sense to a lot of gay people.
― Tim F, Wednesday, January 18, 2012 2:57 AM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
point taken, but the helpless, role-bound angle is very obvious, and i suspect that it makes intuitive (and direct) sense to all sorts of people.
― Little GTFO (contenderizer), Wednesday, 18 January 2012 16:45 (twelve years ago) link
So one should not judge her on the merit of actually performing a song well, this is a pop world and she is a pop singer and we need to judge her on image. So when I see a comment saying "at least she was hot" or something, it seems to me like looking past her shortcomings to support the image she's selling. Which is a sexpot.
i see in LDR's songs and videos the attempt to construct a persona with a particular erotic/romantic appeal
This i agree w 100%. And by disregarding the 'rockist' performance aspect of it all, really the only way to appreciate her live appearances is as a visual object. I'm not saying it's not sexist to do so, but if the artist is relying so heavily on her visual representation it shouldn't be a surprise that it comes up.
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 18 January 2012 17:05 (twelve years ago) link
So one should not judge her on the merit of actually performing a song well, this is a pop world and she is a pop singer and we need to judge her on image.
this is just flat-out insane
― Bam! Orgasm explosion in your facehole. (DJP), Wednesday, 18 January 2012 17:06 (twelve years ago) link
again, if performing on a high profile show wasn't apparently a more central piece of her label's promotional plan for her at the moment than getting the song on the radio or the video on TV, this would be a moot point. there's no reason she had to make an SNL performance her first exposure to a large chunk of America, other than that they apparently got the opportunity and couldn't say no.
― Whitechocolatespacecase (some dude), Wednesday, 18 January 2012 17:09 (twelve years ago) link
yeah, got to agree (sorry, bruneau). i'm not saying that image construction trumps other aspects of a pop star's public offering, just that it does figure in somewhere and is reasonable to consider. frankly, i think that all people do this, not just pop stars. we all craft public personas, and most of us would like to be seen as sexy in some sense or other.
― Little GTFO (contenderizer), Wednesday, 18 January 2012 17:20 (twelve years ago) link
http://www.coveringphotography.com/sites/idesweb.bc.edu.baden6/files/images/large/Weegee-Goffman72.jpg
― Mordy, Wednesday, 18 January 2012 17:27 (twelve years ago) link
well yeah
― Little GTFO (contenderizer), Wednesday, 18 January 2012 17:32 (twelve years ago) link
Isn't image is a significant part of LDR's appeal though? If the live aspect is to be disregarded then what other aspects of her public offering should we be considering when viewing a performance such as the SNL?
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 18 January 2012 17:42 (twelve years ago) link
best strategy relative to the SNL performance is to view another channel
― Little GTFO (contenderizer), Wednesday, 18 January 2012 17:52 (twelve years ago) link
― Science, you guys. Science. (DL), Thursday, 19 January 2012 01:44 (8 hours ago)
ah yeah as Mark says, this really looks like at best a publishing demo, the cover more like a comp someone on t'interweb's made of some old unreleased or barely-released tracks recently, not an actual release she put out.
― Θ ̨Θƪ (sic), Wednesday, 18 January 2012 23:54 (twelve years ago) link
the sexist machinations in the gen shaming rhetoric around this go way past subtleties like "overt" and "obvious."
also this post:
in a certain way sexism is all over this incident. we have an artist whose entire act is either enacting particular sexist tropes about female passivity, male domination, a whole dynamic of neglect + pining, or at the very least problematizing + dialoguing that it. she records one single that that gets her a lot of attention. i'm not going to pretend that my love of that single has nothing to do w/ gender + sex. i found her performance in that video really sexy, i found her vocal performance really arresting, and titillating. that's often going on w/ music of both genders. partially due to the attention she got from that video (a video that was itself sexually problematic, and attention that was certainly sexualized) she was given an incredibly rare opportunity for such an inexperienced artist -- playing on SNL.now we have a notably terrible performance from that artist. part of what made the performance terrible is what i wrote about in a post above: that instead of seeming confident, in control, savvy she came off as amateurish, naive, overwhelmed. part of the problem is that instead of being sexy she was almost childish. so it's not like sex + gender aren't appropriate here. but i think calling criticism here 'sexism' without explicating exactly how sex fits into the whole thing, is just an intellectual duck.then on top of it, there are actual technical stuff about her performance that were imperfect. but yes, if she were someone else, maybe someone who had different dynamics in her song, or someone coming w/ a wider range of material + tropes, the reaction would be much different. but this reaction has as much to do with how she was marketed upfront.― Mordy, Wednesday, January 18, 2012 12:25 AM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
now we have a notably terrible performance from that artist. part of what made the performance terrible is what i wrote about in a post above: that instead of seeming confident, in control, savvy she came off as amateurish, naive, overwhelmed. part of the problem is that instead of being sexy she was almost childish. so it's not like sex + gender aren't appropriate here. but i think calling criticism here 'sexism' without explicating exactly how sex fits into the whole thing, is just an intellectual duck.
then on top of it, there are actual technical stuff about her performance that were imperfect. but yes, if she were someone else, maybe someone who had different dynamics in her song, or someone coming w/ a wider range of material + tropes, the reaction would be much different. but this reaction has as much to do with how she was marketed upfront.
― Mordy, Wednesday, January 18, 2012 12:25 AM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
p much reads like "what did you expect dressing like that?"
― judith, Thursday, 19 January 2012 00:26 (twelve years ago) link
what if she were on tv naked? would he be allowed to find her sexy then, it would it still be sexism.
― iatee, Thursday, 19 January 2012 00:27 (twelve years ago) link
like at least a small part of you has to know how bullshitty that sounds
― judith, Thursday, 19 January 2012 00:30 (twelve years ago) link
it's kinda long...but fairly articulate! i mean, there was thought involved. like, lots of thought.
― scott seward, Thursday, 19 January 2012 00:39 (twelve years ago) link
i'm sorry but you used a statement typically used after a girl gets raped w/r/t mordy finding someone on tv attractive
― iatee, Thursday, 19 January 2012 00:41 (twelve years ago) link
i agree with the main premise. or one of the main premises. she isn't really well-rounded enough to pull off what she's trying to pull off. and i agree with the childish aspect too. its like a kid playing dress-up. not an adult inhabiting a role. fiona apple was actually much more successful at this! for better or worse.
― scott seward, Thursday, 19 January 2012 00:41 (twelve years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcOKUWJZyak
― do you not like slouching? (Eazy), Thursday, 19 January 2012 00:42 (twelve years ago) link
her saving grace is: catchy tunes and decent production in the studio. or suitably atmospheric production anyway. she reminds me of every triphopper that wasn't portishead or massive attack. they've got the spirit, but lose the feeling. inmyveryhumbleopinion.
― scott seward, Thursday, 19 January 2012 00:43 (twelve years ago) link
tbf, equating "i found her sexy because she was dressed sexy" with "she deserved to be raped because she was dressed sexy" also sounds a little bullshitty
the objectionable part of the latter statement isn't the suggestion that certain modes of dress are sexy.
― Little GTFO (contenderizer), Thursday, 19 January 2012 00:47 (twelve years ago) link
the argument is pretty much that her failing to deliver on her "sexy image" justifies for the harsh backlash. a backlash that has a particular character to it, not one that you ever really see guys getting subjected to, not that there are no examples of guys being slammed, but i think pay attn to the characterisation of that response, which has been done already by that village voice (?) post and get bent and doesn't really need to be repeated, and really, in the end, theres this way in which it rests on a kind of entitlement to an image, or a curtain being pulled back. there's this reveal and subsequent humiliation. like this is the narrative, its sortof beyond creepy and the circularity of it is only underlined when people say "well she acted like she was gonna be really sexy so i mean"
― judith, Thursday, 19 January 2012 00:55 (twelve years ago) link
http://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/gallery/files/9/8/2/8/michael-jackson-eating-popcorn.gif
― 誤 means 訳. 訳 means 侮辱. (Whiney G. Weingarten), Thursday, 19 January 2012 00:56 (twelve years ago) link
cant the argument just be that she is terrible?
― call all destroyer, Thursday, 19 January 2012 00:57 (twelve years ago) link
honestly i don't even know how to respond to this. i'm not using the way she dresses, acts or sings to justify any kind of sexual violence against her and the suggestion that i am is... like unless you believe that any discussion of someone's sexuality is itself a form of sexual violence?
― Mordy, Thursday, 19 January 2012 00:58 (twelve years ago) link
fiona could teach lana a thing or two about owning a stage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5LhxqbmsZ4&feature=related
― scott seward, Thursday, 19 January 2012 01:01 (twelve years ago) link
fwiw, judith, and i wrote this above, i think that yes, some ppl on the internet (HRO seems to be the biggest offender, tho i haven't read his piece) are clearly criticizing her in language that scans as explicitly sexist. those ppl suck. at the same time, those ppl aren't (afaict) posting here on ilx so using them as a cudgel to beat back ppl criticizing her here is strawman-esque?
― Mordy, Thursday, 19 January 2012 01:03 (twelve years ago) link
i mean, fiona had a pretty limited palette too. and she also had catchy songs, hearbreakm laments, psychsexual drama, and decent production. AND she could stalk a stage and captivate. and pout. she was good at it! probably younger then lana when she had her heyday too. don't know how old people are anymore.
― scott seward, Thursday, 19 January 2012 01:03 (twelve years ago) link
"psychosexual"
― scott seward, Thursday, 19 January 2012 01:04 (twelve years ago) link
actually i'm guessing about the psychosexual element, cuz i don't remember her lyrics too well, but the big one had the boyfriend with the deviant lifestyle and all that. whatever that meant. and the seedy calvin klein video kinda went in that direction.
― scott seward, Thursday, 19 January 2012 01:05 (twelve years ago) link
sorry, i'm kinda derailing this other, uh, thing with fiona talk. carry on.
― scott seward, Thursday, 19 January 2012 01:06 (twelve years ago) link
i haven't read anything on hro about this, though a language that is explicitly sexist would be preferable to an endless displacement, where certain tropes are allowed to enter in that normally have no place but refuse to rise to the surface. i mean florence or feist or robyn or p much any harvest of "quirky chicks" buzz cycles where their authenticity is so easily toppled. its a pretty similar narrative that gets repeated, it has to do with unmasking in some sense. it has its own identifiable features and it does illustrate a gender dynamic, a way in which women artists can only be framed one way regardless so that their adoption of a certain image is also this thing that makes them easy to dismiss. and yeah this does all have a lot to do with rape discourses, which tend to feature heavily this need to blame women for their ways of self-presenting. it has implications that it doesn't for men. there are roads that go places. to point that out is not to call everybody a rapist but like seriously this thread reads super badly. i probably shouldn't have singled out one post by one poster. for that i'm sorry.
― judith, Thursday, 19 January 2012 01:20 (twelve years ago) link
As far as I can tell, LDR has no interest in owning a stage. She's aiming at a Dorothy Vallens vibe and doesn't have the life damage/acting chops to pull off that kind of mystique.
― Plato’s The Cave In Claymation (Sanpaku), Thursday, 19 January 2012 01:27 (twelve years ago) link
there are roads that go places?
― Mordy, Thursday, 19 January 2012 01:28 (twelve years ago) link
i'm not blaming ldr for how she's presenting herself. my post that you quoted above was showing the mismatch between how she presented herself on her recorded single and how she seemed to be trying and failing to present herself that way on SNL.
― Mordy, Thursday, 19 January 2012 01:30 (twelve years ago) link
also, for the record, i don't believe ldr should expect criticism + condemnation bc she dresses provocatively. i do think she should expect criticism bc she's a public figure and much like politicians, actors, and other people who have chosen to be in the spotlight, musicians (both male + female) can expect harsh things to be written about them. sometimes by ppl on ilx. i don't know if it's a good thing. it's probably a deeply embedded human thing.
― Mordy, Thursday, 19 January 2012 01:38 (twelve years ago) link