Hilary Duff: Joy for pre-teens, not just Humbert Humbert

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I'm still totally unclear as to what's so off-putting about the teenpop thread. What is "earnest froth"? What are these accusations really all about -- surely this isn't really about specialization (or dilettantism), because (1) no one on the teenpop thread would ever claim to be an "expert" of the genre, and in fact the pervading tone is one of skepticism toward any sort of "expertise" or "specialization" (though focusing on a topic can help establish informal rules and boundaries of discussion, making discussion possible -- though really they're probably the most informal rules of any of the discussions, genre threads or otherwise) and, though maybe dilettantish (this is not inherently a bad thing; see Frank's Department of Dilettante Research), fundamentally open to grappling with a broad range of perspectives and ideas. I just don't see how there is anything off-putting about the thread whatsoever; in fact, I think it's (potentially) the best place to spark music discussions, along with a few of the other rolling threads, because there's an implied congeniality missing from a lot of other random threads, but the insights aren't limited, and consensus is never a given (there is actually very little consensus on the teenpop thread -- I think there are two or three people, e.g., who put "4ever" in their top singles of the year).

So it's particularly disheartening to hear claims of a "leader/follower" situation (not to say a lot of posters aren't influenced by the established critics posting there, but...why shouldn't we be?), and of a "tone" that should avoided, when the only thing about the teepop thread that doesn't shift or change is its multiplicity (in ideas, in what music in encompasses, in the social demographics, etc. etc.) and its openness to change any given idea on any given day, provided there's a reasonable (or hell, even unreasonable if it sparks a conversation) argument for it.

We still haven't gotten past the word way up at the beginning of the revive that started us (well, me, anyway) down this path in the first place: CREEPY. There is something unsettling about the teenpop thread to a lot of people posting here (some people who post on the thread) and I want to try to uncover what this really is. It's STUPID, and it prevents people from joining the conversation (if ya don't like the music, but you like the conversation, why not express an opinion, make an argument, for why it's bad, or cliched, or not worth talking about? "Inside" posters do this all the time; I spent several thousand words trying to articulate why I didn't want to focus on Avril's "Girlfriend.")

(Tim F generally OTM)

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:16 (nineteen years ago)

(Ignore the numbers, I guess it was all one big point.)

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:17 (nineteen years ago)

1. Teenpop commentators are both Communists and marrow-sucking Capitalist pigs.

2. OMGz. LOL. Teenpop commentators BELIEVE:: ALY + AJ R Better than Bobbie Dylan!!!

On a serious (or is it?) note: I'm very suspicious that "humorless" means - HOW COME WHEN I MAKE FUN OF TEENPOP, THEY ALWAYS EXPLAIN WHAT I'M MISSING AND MAKE ME LOOK LIKE AN ASS? DUDE! I JUST WANNA CALL PARIS A SLUT!

Cause far as I can tell - indie music and indie fans can be just as humorless - IF NOT MORESO - than teenpop fans. Cause Joanna Newsom is really full of humor, right? Or the fans who drool over her like excited 12-year-olds on this board really aren't humorless.

― Mordechai Shinefield, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:19 (nineteen years ago)

its possible that the indie people dont feel the need/pressure to be boosterish, as its already a given that the rules of the game are 'accepted', and that this can lead to a general defensiveness-of-genre in teenpoppers because rules of game not accepted, so have to rep for the rules of the game as well as the players

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:22 (nineteen years ago)

+ general feeeling of 'ok i dont normally get to talk about this much so im kinda stoked that i can here'

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:23 (nineteen years ago)

Holy shit, 696. Are you serious? I've been sold TV on the Radio more than I've ever been sold Miley Cyrus. Maybe I haven't been sold indie as an idea, but I've definitely been sold indie bands. Even indie bands as ideas (ie: Joanna Newsom).

― Mordechai Shinefield, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:24 (nineteen years ago)

eh, wait? i dont understand, im not saying indie bands arent sold/marketed. of course they are!

i...genuinely dont get what you've read me as saying, above

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:26 (nineteen years ago)

Can't be sold if you ain't buyin
Can't be told if you ain't tryin
Can't be sad if you ain't cryin
CAN'T WALK IF YOU'RE BUSY FLYIN

― Dimension 5ive, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:27 (nineteen years ago)

I don't mean 'sold' in the marketing sense. Obviously. I mean having the band pushed onto me.

― Mordechai Shinefield, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:28 (nineteen years ago)

Friends who come to ask her for their future
Friends who come to find they can't be friends
Because of signs and seasons that don't suit her
She'll prophesy your death, she won't say when
Won't say when, won't say when.

― Mordechai Shinefield, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:29 (nineteen years ago)

im just saying that 'out there in the world' indie is accepted in a way teenpop isnt. this doesnt mean it doesnt need to be sold. of course it does. but some guy talking about, i dunno, tv on the radio, isnt going to get looks of derision that they might do if they were talking about hilaryduff

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:29 (nineteen years ago)

absolutely, the bands are pushed onto you, its already 'accepted/believed' you like the genre. whereas some straight dude over the age of 12, or ok a dude at all, its not going to be thought of that they like hilary

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:30 (nineteen years ago)

You think that because indie is more accepted that makes its fans less boosterish? Dude, how many Tool fans are there in the world? I'm gonna guess... a lot. Yet every single one has tried to push Tool on me. SO: Clearly legitimacy has nothing to do with boosterism.

― Mordechai Shinefield, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:31 (nineteen years ago)

plus, half the thing with indie, is the whole individualism schtick, this artist stands alone, theyre not indie, they transcend that etc etc disingenousness

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:32 (nineteen years ago)

the fans push the band onto you

not the genre

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:33 (nineteen years ago)

Important point here: Hilary Duff is much better than TV on the Radio.

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:33 (nineteen years ago)

indie:boosterism of band, not genre (as is already accepted)

teenpop: boosterism of genre (as has to fight for legitimacy)

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:33 (nineteen years ago)

of course hilary duff is better than tv on the radio, i dont know what thats got to do with anything

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:34 (nineteen years ago)

"the world"

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:34 (nineteen years ago)

I think what 696 is saying is that there's an initial stage of argument - "Why are we even talking about this stuff?" - that doesn't need to be gone through for indie* these days** but that discussion of teenpop (outside the thread) keeps coming back to.

*except when someone forces the issue, but even on ILM this is a rarity nowadays
**wasn't always so, definitely.

xpost yes, he was saying that.

― Groke, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:34 (nineteen years ago)

(blah blah xpost) I think what 696 is saying is that when you're "sold" TV on the Radio or other indie bands so often, then you accept that it is a worthwhile thing to talk about, but when Miley Cyrus doesn't exist except for in a Radio Disney (and maybe MySpace) vacuum, there's a tendency to be more boosterish, to exaggerate what you get out of the music (which is not to say the enjoyment isn't genuine) and to be defensive about it.

― jaymc, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:35 (nineteen years ago)

Before we get into an indie tangent or legitimacy or disingenuousness or whatever, I should mention that indie music is in no way in opposition to the non-indie stuff discussed on the teenpop thread.

xposts

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:35 (nineteen years ago)

Boosterism is Boosterism. Aren't we talking about humorlessness? Well, that's produced by boosterism, no matter what the fan is pushing for. And as pointed out above, teenpop is an amalgamation of genres. Meg & Dia are written about there, but they also get written about on absolutepunk.net.

― Mordechai Shinefield, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:35 (nineteen years ago)

And I have no idea why TV on the Radio is worth talking about, or half as interesting as most of the subjects in the Teenpop thread. If anything, the consequence of indie's acceptance is that people don't care enough to ask.

― Mordechai Shinefield, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:36 (nineteen years ago)

Also, very few people on the teenpop thread really like Miley Cyrus all that much! I thought she was fun when she came out, now couldn't care less. Frank and xhuxk never liked her much, IIRC, and I don't think anyone except me and Greg and Mordy even mention her. Dimension 5ive hates her!

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:36 (nineteen years ago)

c'mon guys, just admit that your tastes are illegitimate, it'll make everything a lot easier.

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:37 (nineteen years ago)

i think the boosterism of genre is a form of defensiveness (fighting for legitimacy), and the defensiveness is a contributory factor to humourlessness

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:37 (nineteen years ago)

ive never heard miley cyrus or tv on the radio lol

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:37 (nineteen years ago)

"What is "earnest froth"?"

http://www.csulb.edu/~csnider/wilde.image.jpg

― scott seward, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:37 (nineteen years ago)

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:38 (nineteen years ago)

earnest froth, he used to be trombone player in sol campbell and his chiswick riverboat gamblers

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:38 (nineteen years ago)

Sigh. Alright. I'll give up the ghost. I don't really like any of the music I pretend to. I really just like Pink Floyd and Led Zeppelin (and Tool AND Children of Bodom) but I'm contrarian. My bad.

― Mordechai Shinefield, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:38 (nineteen years ago)

I'm only defensive when people accuse me of being: dishonest, humorless, a pedophile (which has happened directly and indirectly in publications I write/wrote for), a misguided follower, a "specialist," a "generalist," etc. etc. etc.

^^^ of course. but, if you are a teenpop fan, there is always the chance of this kind of attack, just round the corner, so defensiveness isnt surprising, even if its quite muted

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:39 (nineteen years ago)

Sigh. Alright. I'll give up the ghost. I don't really like any of the music I pretend to. I really just like Pink Floyd and Led Zeppelin (and Tool AND Children of Bodom) but I'm contrarian. My bad.

-- Mordechai Shinefield, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:38 (47 secon

dude, defensive much;)

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:40 (nineteen years ago)

(I'm sorry, who is dabug? If you don't want to say, no worries, I was just curious.)

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:40 (nineteen years ago)

serious, i dont see anyone suggesting you dont like what you like

or

where have you read in what ive said, something along those lines?

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:40 (nineteen years ago)

I also think that "fighting for legitimacy" re: teenpop is sort of an outgrowth of a broader goal of mine to fight against idiocy in music writing, in part because I've contributed to this myself and still do occasionally. Teenpop is, almost without exception, where this idiocy is most pronounced, easiest to spot, and easiest to deflate. (But again, that's only when legitimacy is even an issue, which it isn't explicitly, or even implicitly, THAT often on the teenpop thread, and certainly isn't a "rule.")

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:41 (nineteen years ago)

You have emailed dabug, Ned! He is waiting to hear about you about some essay he is supposed to write...

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:41 (nineteen years ago)

xpost
exactly, you just shouldn't like what you like.

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:42 (nineteen years ago)

well, there it is!

im not suggesting anything is unjustified or bad, just that all the reasons you have stated are surely a contributory factor to genre-boosterism, that wont be present in other genres for the simple fact that those barbs and attacks are not there?

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:42 (nineteen years ago)

696, I was just responding to Eppy's post. It was a joke. :-P

― Mordechai Shinefield, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:42 (nineteen years ago)

if you are a teenpop fan, there is always the chance of this kind of attack, just round the corner, so defensiveness isnt surprising, even if its quite muted

I'm never surprised, but I'm often defensive. Especially when it happens here. What is this "outside world" of which you speak, anyhow?

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:43 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.newyorktelephone.net/images/03-2006/28/5000.jpg

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:43 (nineteen years ago)

You have emailed dabug, Ned! He is waiting to hear about you about some essay he is supposed to write...

Astounding!

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:43 (nineteen years ago)

696, I was just responding to Eppy's post. It was a joke. :-P

-- Mordechai Shinefield,

ffs you guys, can you not keep it humourless, i cant keep up

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:44 (nineteen years ago)

I've got to go take a film final on [wait for it......] legitimacy and marginalization in Jewish film. Be back later.

― Mordechai Shinefield, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:44 (nineteen years ago)

serious, i dont see anyone suggesting you dont like what you like

not you, but it's all over the place! people accusing the teenpop dudes of "frothing" or "fawning" or "exaggerating" or "going overboard" when they call albums by lindsay lohan or paris hilton amazing

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:45 (nineteen years ago)

You can't beat a good Aly and AJ tune for SHAME SHAME SHAME. Try "Not This Year"!

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:45 (nineteen years ago)

696 otm upthread btw

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:45 (nineteen years ago)

OR IS HE

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:45 (nineteen years ago)

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