REM: Classic or dud?

the soundtrack to all my teen angst and along with bad poetry and sad high school thoughts....yerch!

So funny to me that R.E.M. would have this resonance for some people, but I guess if you mostly knew them from OOT and AFTP -- or the ambient presence of those albums' singles -- I can see it.

up is a great record everybody; reveal is sleepy yeah but underestimated, has some of their most beautiful songs; i actually like around the sun but expect no one else to ever; accelerate was cool at the moment and then i forgot about it?; collapse into now is the first record i really didn't like by these dudes, so melodically and lyrically lazy

REM has major resonance to me. oot and aftp are two of my least favorite albums they recorded with bill. the IRS years still shiver my timbers

now that the show is over, i am going back and listening to 'up,' 'reveal,' etc., figuring i was wrong about them. the fresh prospect of there never being another album from them is already changing my feelings about these later songs

this is my go-to track from around the sun:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHPzD8C-gGw

don't mean to turn this into a relentless youtube thread, but they also completely enlivened the up tracks live:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJ46Y6xt2pU

"enlivened" "live"

you know

thanks. those are great

so sad to see the exuberance of peter buck in the early 80s compared to his stage demeanor in 2000s, when he's basically just wasted

I study hopelessly title after title on Reveal, unable to recall a single hook -- and these songs are mostly over four minutes long.

I was thrilled by my first hearing of "The Lifting", with its strange bass sound, but Stipe's hoarseness undercut the would-be hook. The production's very much of its time, circa the late 90s Beach Boys renaissance / Dave Fridmann era, & it sounds very dated now...though we're due for a revival of that sound in the next five years so maybe this record'll be a touchstone again soon!

so sad to see the exuberance of peter buck in the early 80s compared to his stage demeanor in 2000s, when he's basically just wasted

he's a lot older now. probably isn't as easy to move around so much.

yeah "The Lifting" is the only thing from Reveal i liked at all

I'm still fond of "I've Been High", for its melody & Stipe's delicate (!) vocal.

yeah i like i've been high. that whole album, though, i find myself thinking, "wait, what band is this?" not necessarily a bad thing, i guess. highs and lows on reveal, that's to be sure. "i'll take the rain"! worst REM song ever?

yes

"Saturn Returns"! It's embarrassing.

"Beachball" I mean wtf?

I do like "The Lifting" and if I'm feeling generous might consider it one of their strongest opening numbers; but the mix is lifeless, you know?

Aw, I like the sound on that. Drums sound good.

I'll Take The Rain - definitely the worst. Although there might be something worse on Around The Sun if I could be bothered sitting through it all.
Saturn Returns is quite an interesting experiment in medieval folk, a couple of years before that sort of thing became commonplace in certain underground circles. Maybe not entirely successful, but certainly not an embarrassment. I'd rather hear REM doing prog-folk than U2, which is what I'll Take The Rain is.
Beachball is a rather dreamy bit of Beach Boys/Les Baxter exotica. It's a wisp of a song and arrangement, but again, far from embarrassing.
I think the Lifting is one of the few on that album where the busy mix actually suits the song.

The Reno song is a real dog, & I can't remember anything past that. Oh, I guess "Imitation of Life" was ok, but it had that awful lyric about sliced bread.

YOU'RE GONNA BE A STAAAAAARRRRR

the video was cute

song is case A in why Berry's departure was the end: the song plods & Bill would never have stood for that.

yeah, i could see that. i'm imagining it about sped up significantly and it already sounds significantly better

It could definitely use a better bridge, too.

Wait...I'm imagining it with a better bridge, too. Man this song kicks ass now!

You're gonna be a star!

the song plods & Bill would never have stood for that.

Do you really think this song "plods" more than, say, "Undertow?"

"beat a drum" was my favorite r.e.m. song for a decent amount of time.

"Undertow" has a bit of a swing! bong-ba-ba-bang, bong-ba-ba-bang, etc.

That's beside the point!

!!! my point that was that "Reno" doesn't swing, but only plods.

we need a conceptual analysis of swings, plods, drags, etc. But however this works: Bill Berry was a swinger.

You know, it's not swing - now that I listen again. Swing is a triplicate division of the beat and that song breaks the beat down into fours.

Anyway, "plod," of course, is just negative assessment of pacing.

And I'm sticking up for Joey Waronker here!

The problem's more with the songwriting; I've no doubt the drummer did what he was told to do. It's a Buck / Mills / Stipe write.

I wouldn't assume that. Certainly wouldn't assume that they told Bill Rieflin what to do!

I totally assume they told Rieflin exactly what to do. Guy was a hired hand, albeit a million times better than Waronker.

Don't understand the assumption at all. Wouldn't imagine Peter Buck would like to be told exactly what to do when he plays on other people's records.

I saw them twice on the Green tour, first early on at the Worcester Centrum and then toward the end of the tour at Great Woods, both arenas in Massachusetts. They came across as two completely different bands from the first show to the later one. I think that's when they truly crossed over from old school REM to new, freaked out rock star REM.

xpost Peter Buck appears on other records as a guest. Bringing along his musical personality os part of the deal. But Rieflin was replacing a drummer in an established band, not to mention a band with studio perfectionist tendencies. The idea that he had free reign in R.E.M. is nuts. Here's a good Rieflin interview, by Glenn Kotche: http://periodicals.faqs.org/201007/2048065091.html

"Studio perfectionist tendencies" - like Peter wanting to only play songs couple of times?

Hardly think it's nuts to question the assumption that they would have gotten Rieflin in the band so that they could "tell him exactly what to do."

When other artists ask Peter Buck to play on their records, it's because they want him to do what he does. When a studio drummer is asked to replace a former quarter-member of a band that's been around for 30 years, it's not likely that he was hired to do more than he's asked to do by the rest of the band.

He's not a "studio drummer." Even if he was, it wouldn't necessarily matter. He was in Minus Five before he was in R.E.M. His wikipedia page states that he also contributed bouzouki, keyboards, and guitars to R.E.M., but you guys will probably just say that Peter and Mike told him exactly what to play.

wtf is this dumb argument. can we talk about how good this song is instead?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgiCechWNCo&ob=av3e

tellll her she can kiss my ass
and laugh
and say that you were only kidding
that way she'll know
that it's really, really, really, really me.

Quote from here:

Generally, say, if Bill was going to learn our old material, I would definitely suggest listening to the old records and do what [original R.E.M. drummer] Bill Berry does,” says Buck, relaxing in Hawaii before starting a major tour behind Accelerate. “Anything current, it’s all his arrangement ideas. He doesn’t have to play like Bill Berry would have. We hired him for his ability to use balance, so he’s totally free to play whatever he seems to feel makes sense.

Just barging in here as a guy who once thought R.E.M. were up there with my fave bands ever circa 'Document'. Man, did I ever wear that thing out.

Almost immediately stopped paying attention after 'Green'. So weird. I loved them so much at one point, and then I simply didn't, and never really cared why.

"The Lifting" is utterly fantastic. It came on randomly like 4 years ago when I was at a bar and I frantically asked my bartender friend what he had played -- he told me R.E.M.

Still never listened to the full 'Reveal' alb (or, frankly any lp in full after Automatic), but goddamn 'The Lifting' is like one of the best psych tracks all time, no joke. band should have tried straight-up psych more often

It's equally nuts to believe that Buck really played any songs only once or twice in the studio. Later R.E.M., once the arrangements took off, is the farthest thing from a one-take band, and you can hear it, to the detriment of the songs, which is why so may of the tracks from "Up" and beyond fare so well live.

You're still saying "equally nuts" after I posted that quote?

Rieflin was able to have significant creative input. You were not correct on that matter. As for the other matter, Peter Buck has stated that he does not like to play things over and over again in the studio.

don't really feel like getting into it, but 2 points:

a) it's Peter Buck saying this, who also says with each new record that it's their best. not sure how reliable he is in interviews (much love, but I'm sure he's a couple martinis down at any given point)

b) if your quote's so salient, why doesn't he get songwriting credit? i.e. see a)