sometime i read christgau and am amazed...

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The economy of Christgau's writing has always struck me as its greatest attribute. I know he can write long too, but I love the short stuff because it compresses meaning in something like the way that a great 3-minute pop song compresses meaning. When he's on his game, the form and function are perfectly suited.

gabneb made a crack about 600-word reviews in PopMatters and Pitchfork -- right enough. I wrote for PopMatters briefly, until the thrill of not being paid wore off, and I was often scrambling to pad those things out to 500-plus words. You find yourself doing things like tedious track-by-track recitations, or noting that the engineer also worked on Tanya Donnelly's last album...

spittle (spittle), Friday, 23 April 2004 07:45 (twenty-two years ago)

"If Jonathan Gold ever got a Pulitzer for his food reviews, then I would think there is some true justice in this universe."
OTM. He's the best post-rock rock critic currently writing. I read him the way I read Xgau twenty/twenty-five years ago. However, this thread proves that Bob can still strike a nerve w/o even trying.
Personally, sometimes I read Greil M and am amazed I even bother. Try deciphering his last column if you're really bored.

lovebug starski, Friday, 23 April 2004 10:20 (twenty-two years ago)

anyway the idea that a clear writing style featuring careful stylistic description and elucidation of technique and context is less an aesthetic pleasure than some showboating rockcrit (not alluding to xgau here) full of puns and references, is silly. i reject that dichotomy. i.e. one can take aesthetic pleasure from a sense of focus and concentration and purpose and pointedness, as much as from the various alternative attributes (many of them admittedly lost on me) of rock criticism.

Well, true (except for the parenthetical thought), but is anybody here really saying clarity and formalist follies are mutually exclusive in an essay? Or career?

Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Friday, 23 April 2004 12:26 (twenty-two years ago)

This thread is kind of the antimatter version of critical karaoke, isn't it?

The Mighty Chickadee, Friday, 23 April 2004 12:44 (twenty-two years ago)

what does that mean?

scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 23 April 2004 12:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Just a joke. Given some of the participants, I thought not a cryptic one (although maybe not a funny one).

The Mighty Chickadee, Friday, 23 April 2004 13:02 (twenty-two years ago)

(Scott -- it's to do with some panel thing that happened at EMP.)

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 23 April 2004 13:13 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm with jeanne here - i'm a pretty smart reader, but i generally like to have at least the slightest clue what the fuck people are writing about. it's called a consumer's guide - what kind of consumers does it guide, or is that a punchline (at the top of the page), too?

Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 13:21 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't get what's supposed to be so cryptic about Christgau. I mean, I miss some of his references, but hell, I miss some of Quentin Tarantino's references too -- I still get the gist.

spittle (spittle), Friday, 23 April 2004 14:15 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm quite happy not knowing what someone is talking about. I like having the choice of looking it up or skipping it over. It can be fun. Perhaps not with instruction manuals, but for casual reading....

Then again, I'm also quite happy not knowing where I am at any given time.

Evanston Wade (EWW), Friday, 23 April 2004 14:28 (twenty-two years ago)

"I've admired some aesthetically pleasing spatulas in my time."

What I never understood is how "spatulas" can actually be TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS, with two completely different functions -- The flipping kind (metal or wood, usually) and the scraping kind (generally rubber, I think). The only thing they have in common is that they're SORT OF shaped alike. How come the English language didn't come up with two different words for them? It weirds me out.

chuck, Friday, 23 April 2004 15:39 (twenty-two years ago)

You could always coin a new one (for the scraping kind please).

BanjoMania (Brilhante), Friday, 23 April 2004 15:42 (twenty-two years ago)

well you could always call them rubber spatulas, wooden spatulas, or metal spatulas (also known as pallette knives).

Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 23 April 2004 16:00 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm really annoyed by the "playa-hata" line, which seems to rest on the assumption that every one who posts to ilm is either a third tier rock critic or a wannabe rock critic, and thus harbors an unbecoming resentment towards the first tier rock critics

i can say with breathtaking confidence that i have no aspirations to becoming a rock critic

amateur!st (amateurist), Friday, 23 April 2004 16:08 (twenty-two years ago)

playa-hata implies none of those things

cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 23 April 2004 16:09 (twenty-two years ago)

in fact amster if there's anyone that follows 'don't hate the playa, hate the game' on these things (= rockcrits: CoD), it's you (cept you hate the playas also).

cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 23 April 2004 16:10 (twenty-two years ago)

i took john's remark to imply a kind of professional resentment

xgau doesn't really bother me, in fact i really like him on certain things (al green!), and he has very good taste as i've remarked elsewhere; sometimes i search for explication of his notoriously cryptic reviews, and if it turns up the review was simply missing a bit of crucial context, or a connective clause or two, it bugs me a little, and more so that people use the "don't spoonfeed the audience" argument in response

i don't dislike rock critics or even "rock criticism" in theory, it's the contemporary practice of rock criticism that i find wanting; there are probably certain exceptions that i'm unaware of

amateur!st (amateurist), Friday, 23 April 2004 16:13 (twenty-two years ago)

if it turns up the review was simply missing a bit of crucial context, or a connective clause or two, it bugs me a little

often that context will be understood by those who have gleaned it from other writings of his (compare daniel's comment above about "catholic tastes" a phrase that he has used more than once elsewhere, i believe). each capsule review seems to help piece together a puzzle. (is it possible that he's understood better by people who are good at pattern recognition and looked down upon by people whose intelligence is more likely to come in other forms?) perhaps he is being dismissive of more casual readers by adopting this approach, but i don't see what obligation he has not to be.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Friday, 23 April 2004 17:03 (twenty-two years ago)

OR...perhaps that context has already been noted about 85 times on this thread already.

Matos W.K. (M Matos), Friday, 23 April 2004 17:14 (twenty-two years ago)

perhaps he is being dismissive of more casual readers by adopting this approach, but i don't see what obligation he has not to be.

Why doesn't he have this obligation?

Because he writes about music? Because he writes for the Village Voice? Because he is Robert Christgau?

frankE (frankE), Friday, 23 April 2004 17:15 (twenty-two years ago)

why should he have that obligation?

cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 23 April 2004 17:19 (twenty-two years ago)

re: the pattern recognition theory:

well, i do know that bob and i are both pretty good at math, for whatever that's worth. which comes in handy around pazz & jop time, but pazz & jop also annually reaffirms for us how AWFUL at math so many rock critics are. (which is fine; it's not exactly a job requirment.)(and metal mike saunders, who is a CPA and who uses math in his writing more than any other rock critic i know and who, to my knowledge, has never been given credit for it, could probably put both bob and i to shame. as could mike's former bandmate and fellow ex-Creem critic greg turner, who's been a math professor for years.)

btw, i wonder what the folks who think christgau is cryptic think of dave tompkins or don allred or (oddly enough, given the love for him above) dave queen, who often write entire reviews (LONG ones) almost completely as word puzzles, where almost EVERY word is some kinda internal pun....there's a ingenius playfulness to their stuff that i'm awe of, but i assume it must drive some readers completely nuts.

chuck, Friday, 23 April 2004 17:21 (twenty-two years ago)

maybe because not everyone who picks up his publication knows who he is or has any idea of the context in which he is writing.

note: i do know who he is and knew what context he was writing, and still had no clue what he was saying.

frankE (frankE), Friday, 23 April 2004 17:22 (twenty-two years ago)

frankE - why should he give a fuck? not everyone who might turn on espn but they're not gonna explain the infield fly rule for the benefit of the nobs in the audience every time out

cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 23 April 2004 17:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Frank E, why would the obligation not to be dismissive of casual readers (and I'm not saying Bob is, but never mind that for a minute) inherently be more important than the obligation not to bore the wits out people who are good at pattern recognition (or people who appreciate playful prose, or whoever)??

chuck, Friday, 23 April 2004 17:26 (twenty-two years ago)

haha Christgau on DQ's Yes piece: "I didn't get all the references."

Matos W.K. (M Matos), Friday, 23 April 2004 17:26 (twenty-two years ago)

I just want this to be restated. I enjoy the guy's writing, generally. But...

Sure, oftentimes I don't get him on the first read, or even the second read, or (I'll admit it) even on the third. When I do, I find myself paid in full for *my* (emphasis added for those who think I need to be spoonfed) effort and his. But in all honesty, the pope's-dick line is such a throwaway as to come off as being for the guys on bathroom break at the symposium. "Hey, Greil! Chuck! Whadya think of that one? Heh, heh."

frankE (frankE), Friday, 23 April 2004 17:28 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean, it's not like these so-called casual readers don't have a few hundred OTHER, less allegedly "cryptic" sources they could go to for a consumer guide to music these days. why is it necessary that bob do the same thing every other hack out there is doing? if people don't like how he writes, why not just stick to ent weekly or whatever?

chuck, Friday, 23 April 2004 17:30 (twenty-two years ago)

critics who willfully write in a language/style that only other critics can understand are like musicians who play music that only other people with music degrees can enjoy (ie, incredibly boring and elitist).

(ps that Yes piece is completely undreadable).

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 23 April 2004 17:30 (twenty-two years ago)

What's the pattern to recognize? If anything this particular review is the anomaly in the list of HMs here!

frankE (frankE), Friday, 23 April 2004 17:31 (twenty-two years ago)

that's how i feel. we are talking about maybe 2% of all music writing here in papers and magazines. 98% percent of it is boring enough for anyone to follow.

scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 23 April 2004 17:32 (twenty-two years ago)

So he has no obligation to casual readers because he is Robert Christgau?

frankE (frankE), Friday, 23 April 2004 17:33 (twenty-two years ago)

"But in all honesty, the pope's-dick line is such a throwaway as to come off as being for the guys on bathroom break at the symposium. "Hey, Greil! Chuck! Whadya think of that one? Heh, heh."

Again, I still don't get this. Are you just saying Greil or I are more likely to be amused by jokes about the size of the Pope's penis than most other people? Possible, but I don't know why that would be.

chuck, Friday, 23 April 2004 17:33 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah no offense shakey, frankE but yall are morons

cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 23 April 2004 17:34 (twenty-two years ago)

critics who willfully write in a language/style that only other critics can understand are like musicians who play music that only other
people with music degrees can enjoy (ie, incredibly boring and elitist).


this isn't true. and when haven't good writers tried to impress other good writers?

scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 23 April 2004 17:35 (twenty-two years ago)

not everyone who might turn on espn but they're not gonna explain the infield fly rule for the benefit of the nobs in the audience every time out

Blount you did hear about that crappy "speedy" graphic that Fox is using to explain baseball arcana to kids, no?

hstencil, Friday, 23 April 2004 17:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Are you just saying Greil or I are more likely to be amused by jokes about the size of the Pope's penis than most other people?

Yes. Clearly.

frankE (frankE), Friday, 23 April 2004 17:35 (twenty-two years ago)

i mean do you sincerely think the average xgau column even approaches the average sportscenter in obfuscatory obscurantism (aka jokes)? and that's TELEVISION - are people who read record reviews just that much dumber than the average sports fan?


fox sports is the blender of sports journalism

cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 23 April 2004 17:37 (twenty-two years ago)

it's true, I am too stupid to understand rock criticism. This is entirely my own fault, stemming from my unwillingness to spend the necessary brainpower on interpreting the self-absorbed in-jokes of writers with an overinflated sense of their inherent aesthetic worth.

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 23 April 2004 17:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Blount, are you trying to argue for the intellectual capabilities of Harold Reynolds?

hstencil, Friday, 23 April 2004 17:38 (twenty-two years ago)

What about jokes about finding the Pope in the pizza? Because, honestly, I can't speak for Greil, but when Father Guido Sarducci used to do that, it didn't crack me up at all! (Though, ok, I think I might have put a piece of wax paper up the TV screen ONCE, maybe...)

chuck, Friday, 23 April 2004 17:39 (twenty-two years ago)

i mean could someone explain why xgau et. al should ignore all the people who do get them in favor of the "casual" readers who don't get them and have a MILLION other writers writing in the 'regurgitate the presskit plz' style they demand?

cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 23 April 2004 17:39 (twenty-two years ago)

harold reynolds would be accused of being too 'academic' by the rules of this thread stence! (and don't even mention mccarver)

cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 23 April 2004 17:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Don't you hate it when writers try and show off by using all those fancy "words" that they know.

scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 23 April 2004 17:40 (twenty-two years ago)

actually, to be serious for a second, this "dumb-it-down" thing is a total strawman. You can actively dislike Christgau's writing (and his occasional obtuseness) without wanting reviews to read like press releases.

hstencil, Friday, 23 April 2004 17:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Anyway, how, exactly, are jokes about the Pope's penis size "in jokes"? I've never even been to the Vatican, and I stopped going to church in ninth grade! (And Bob, I believe, is a Unitarian!!)

chuck, Friday, 23 April 2004 17:41 (twenty-two years ago)

(ps that Yes piece is completely undreadable).

hey! you dropped your spoon!

Matos W.K. (M Matos), Friday, 23 April 2004 17:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Here was maybe my favorite line in the Yes piece:

"...the mighty riff machine YES went into overdrive with riffs like “Owner of a Lonely Heart,” where Trevor Rabin took a flare gun and burned the corrupt apartheid state to the ground!"

The thing is, I had never really noticed that "Smoke on the Water" and "Owner of a Lonely Heart" have essentially the same riff! So the piece taught me something, as well as making me chuckle.

Broheems (diamond), Friday, 23 April 2004 17:42 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean, I don't find much worth in Christgau but not 'cause he's "difficult" or whatever. There are other rock writers who are as difficult (if not more so) whose writing I like better (Meltzer comes to mind first and foremost).

hstencil, Friday, 23 April 2004 17:42 (twenty-two years ago)

stence i know you can - but that ain't happening here! it's all 'writers MUST appeal to the 'casual' reader' garbage!

cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 23 April 2004 17:42 (twenty-two years ago)


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