JAZZ IS LIKE HEROIN TO ME ! ! ! ~~~~ ILM POST-1945 JAZZ ALBUMS POLL - THE RESULTS COUNTDOWN (now counting top 25!)

ws lumping folks together
i have no problem, on an individual basis, w/ any of the albums in this list

Same with Sun Ra -- I just don't find as much to sink my teeth into as John Coltrane or Miles Davis.

not really feeling you on this, all 3 have insanely diverse catalogs.

― I can feel it in my spiritual hat (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, September 2, 2011 3:08 PM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Yeah I've heard the variety. Some Sun Ra is great, but overall I find the arkestra very clunky and clumsy and not very hard-swinging (in the broadest sense). I like the solo keyboard stuff on Solar Myth Approach a lot.

Does Alice Coltrane have any variety though? Everything I hear sounds pretty samey to me.

yall can talk about how much better jazz harpists are than mjq it doesnt make it fact

― D-40, Friday, September 2, 2011 7:59 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

And you can say the opposite and it doesn't make it fact either. How exciting for us all.

its a critique observing how when a certain type dominates, other things are excluded. i didnt even try to claim which ones are 'more correct,' just observing the biases inherent in the results. observing an imbalance or preference in the voting pool doesnt mean that i think my favs are somehow more 'valid'

― D-40, Friday, September 2, 2011 8:01 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I think the problem is that you veer between the two. Sometimes it is just an analysis - though I will say that from what I know of this list the 'dominating type' is at least partially constructed by the fact that we're talking about it the most, and then when something pops up that fits everybody points at it and goes 'look look we were right' - but at other times you've definitely gone on the attack about it.

For the record I am not pissed off about your contributions to this thread at all, but that doesn't mean I'm going to think you're right.

I make no claims towards insightfulness, that's why I've been a lurker for 8 years. I was just sayin' is all y'know.

Sometimes, plebes like us just like expressing enthusiasm for music and don't feel the need to prove some sociological point. That's what normal, irl, non-Aspies do on a day to day basis.

I guess Sun Ra and Alice Coltrane for me are a little like the jazz equivalent of backpacker rap -- like a lot of it is really good, but if you're like "THIS is the real shit, not that boring mainstream jazz" then I find you very suspect.

Does Alice Coltrane have any variety though? Everything I hear sounds pretty samey to me.

I only have three of her albums - Ptah, UC, and JIC - and they vary slightly (strings! oud!) in approach but in general no her catalog doesn't strike me as broad. love it tho.

Does Alice Coltrane have any variety though?
pretty big differences between the harp stuff, the orchestral stuff, the piano stuff, the organ stuff?

beyond a pretty basic 'insight' that i feel like ive reiterated enough upon provocation here, i dont think ive been implying that ive got some incrediblly insightful approach to jazz or something -- if anything, this list is making me want to go back & relisten to a bunch of stuff & see how my opinions have changed over the years -- but i only brought up a lack of insight in response to the accusation from someone who was basically resorting to personal attacks so w/e

THIS is the real shit, not that boring mainstream jazz"

don't think anybody is saying this really. except for maybe when turangalila said she liked Alice more than John.

Yeah it was pretty much directed at him Shakey.

And I wasn't saying that, either. I adore John. I just prefer Alice's aesthetic.

That's what normal, irl, non-Aspies do on a day to day basis.

Yeah, but they also don't run top 250 album count-downs.

or her (xpost)

guys im enjoying the debate/arguing it's fun so please continue but please quit the personal attacks, k?

now the TOP TEN

10 Herbie Hancock - Mwandishi (1970) 2774 Points, 20 votes, One #1
http://www.eximagen.es/image.php?id=5092_4B292F53
http://open.spotify.com/album/2mqMMupKZi5wBf7bXiqDR5

Sometimes, plebes like us just like expressing enthusiasm for music and don't feel the need to prove some sociological point. That's what normal, irl, non-Aspies do on a day to day basis.

― The Not Liking Radiohead Awards (Turangalila), Friday, September 2, 2011 2:15 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

how does your pt about how i probably dont like jazz harpists because they have vaginas fit into the aspie -> plebe spectrum

That's what normal, irl, non-Aspies do on a day to day basis.

Yeah, but they also don't run top 250 album count-downs.

― _Rudipherous_,

and my 2nd previous post especially goes for you

I haven't listened to Alice Coltrane in that much depth (though I think I've heard most of her albums at least a couple times, some much more than that) but I divide her work between accessible/semi-mellow-spiritual and apocalyptic freakout.

I guess Sun Ra and Alice Coltrane for me are a little like the jazz equivalent of backpacker rap -- like a lot of it is really good, but if you're like "THIS is the real shit, not that boring mainstream jazz" then I find you very suspect.

WHY?

This is what I have never understood. WHY WHY WHY? What the fuck grounds do you have for saying this shit? So if someone likes 'record collector' or 'nerdy' stuff more than mainstream stuff they are immediately looked at with scorn? WTF? It's one thing to say that it is a good thing to have a handle on the history of genre, another to say that you are "suspect" (FFS) for preferring a certain style.

I mean, I hold my hands up. I'm a record collector. And I'm a nerd. So fucking sue me.

D-40, Oh, because I do genuinely feel if Alice had a penis people wouldn't give her shit. Brilliant John, lesser Alice. But I don't want to derail this thread any more. Go on.

I mean, I hold my hands up. I'm a record collector. And I'm a nerd. So fucking sue me.

"heretic I cast thee out" etc

and my 2nd previous post especially goes for you

That was not a personal attack! I think the point is just the often-stated one that ILM is inherently a bit of an "aspie" place to begin with and anyone posting on this thread is probably implicated in that.

what do u think of mary lou williams

Oh, because I do genuinely feel if Alice had a penis people wouldn't give her shit.

John Coltrane coming out as gay def would have been interesting in the jazz world

imo shes >>> alice coltrane but xp

never heard that herbie. is it more em isles or more hh fusion? it is placed firmly in the middle of 'herbie i love' and 'rmde'

I mean, I hold my hands up. I'm a record collector. And I'm a nerd. So fucking sue me.

― emil.y, Friday, September 2, 2011 2:21 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

I mean, I hold my hands up. I'm a record collector. And I'm a nerd. So fucking sue me

yes OWN THAT SHIT

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF Herbie Hancock - Mwandishi  

XP
thanks sam!

IDK, I've just never met anyone who actually had a very good handle on jazz and preferred sun ra to other jazz. Also especially with Sun Ra so much of the enjoyment is about the total package of his narrative, persona, costumes, craziness etc. and all that stuff just seems like it doesn't have much to do with the music being jazz, which is why I couldn't help but be a little rankled if Sun Ra topped a jazz poll. All that stuff is great, but to me it's more like performance art or something.

how does your pt about how i probably dont like jazz harpists because they have vaginas fit into the aspie -> plebe spectrum

Probably goes back to discourse elevating penis size speculation.

I think the real issue is why isn't there any Hampton Hawes on this list.

With the formation of his great electric sextet, Herbie Hancock's music took off into outer and inner space, starting with the landmark Mwandishi album recorded in a single session on New Year's Eve. Ever the gadgeteer, Herbie plays with electronic effects devices -- reverb units, stereo tremelo, and Echoplex -- which all lead his music into spacier, open-ended directions very much influenced by Miles Davis' electric experiments, rendering it from post-bop conventions. There are just three tracks: the insistent 15/4-meter Afro-electric-funk workout "Ostinato (Suite for Angela)," the inquisitive "You'll Know When You Get There" with its ethereal Hancock voicings, and trombonist Julian Priester's "Silent Way"-influenced "Wandering Spirit Song," which eventually dips into tumultuous free form. Eddie Henderson emerges as a major trumpet soloist here, probing, jabbing, soliloquizing; Bennie Maupin comes over from Lee Morgan's group to add his ominous bass clarinet and thoughtful alto flute; and Buster Williams' bass and Billy Hart's flexible drums propel the rhythm section. Santana's José Chepitó Areas and Leon "Ndugu" Chancler also add funky percussive reinforcement to "Ostinato," along with guitarist Ron Montrose. The group's collective empathy is remarkable, and Hancock had only begun to probe the outer limits with this extraordinary music.

Also especially with Sun Ra so much of the enjoyment is about the total package of his narrative, persona, costumes, craziness etc. and all that stuff just seems like it doesn't have much to do with the music being jazz, which is why I couldn't help but be a little rankled if Sun Ra topped a jazz poll. All that stuff is great, but to me it's more like performance art or something.

this is pretty disingenuous - all music is performance art and comes with a complete package. Ra's is just shinier and stranger than most.

mary lou williams is so dope. going to use this as an excuse to post a link to her wikipedia page lol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Lou_Williams

dave douglas also did an awes album tribute to her back in the late 90s i think called 'soul on soul'

this is pretty disingenuous - all music is performance art and comes with a complete package. Ra's is just shinier and stranger than most.

― I can feel it in my spiritual hat (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, September 2, 2011 3:25 PM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

THIS is pretty disingenuous.

Also, I never said D-40 didn't like harp because of that. I meant that that sort of thing would probably be more accepted if it had been done by guys. If Charlie Parker had fucked with the harp like Alice did, we wouldn't hear the end of how brilliant and unparalleled that was.

Does Shelly Manne even drum on any of these albums? This list is racist.

charlie parker is easily one of the two or three most influential jazz artists in history. saying alice coltrane is on that level is p nuts imo

i have to be honest, i bought 'shelly manne and his men at the manhole' purely bcuz of the title

THIS is pretty disingenuous.

how so? pretending like a guy wearing a stylish suit and presenting an air of sophisticated upper-class black aesthete is somehow less of a performance than a guy wearing a hat from Egypt is total bullshit. they're both performances.

shelly manne plays on way out west

fwiw i dont think hurting or myself are claiming not to be nerds

Playing an unusual instrument in jazz isn't usually considered "brilliant" or "unparallelled." There are all kinds of forgotten records of jazz banjo, jazz accordion, jazz bagpipes, etc.

I mean even by men.

good catch, tylerw. x-post

this thread is getting "retarded"