JAZZ IS LIKE HEROIN TO ME ! ! ! ~~~~ ILM POST-1945 JAZZ ALBUMS POLL - THE RESULTS COUNTDOWN (now counting top 25!)

i feel like more art blakey would be in my personal mindgarden list too

going against the grain of jazz' narrative
i dunno, by the time the late 60s rolled around, any "jazz narrative" had kinda gone out the window.

^^^^

there are pretty clear dominant trends in jazz from Louis Armstrong up through the early 60s - but after that it burst really wide. free jazz, soul jazz, fusion, etc. people sometimes privelege boundary-expanding periods like this, they're diversity and sense of experimentation is often a joy to behold. but by the late 60s I dunno if you could really say Alice or Pharoah or Herbie were going against the grain per se, they were very much a part of movements going on around them. Ra a little less so because he was such a contrarian and was "ahead of his time" in various ways, and never hewed strictly to prevailing norms (altho his nods to funk and disco in the 70s are hilarious and awesome)

theres some good hard bop here but not as much as you'd expect. how much jimmy smith made it too?

There's a lot to be said about the leanings of this list but, personally, there's not a single album I dislike on here so far (having heard ~90% of it.) I've never seen a top 100 or even top 50 list where that's the case.

Same with Sun Ra -- I just don't find as much to sink my teeth into as John Coltrane or Miles Davis.

not really feeling you on this, all 3 have insanely diverse catalogs.

xp to hurting yeah politics of the time played a big role i imagine -- taking what some were beginning to see as "black folk art" and trying to force it into bed with "modern classical" is going to ruffle some feathers. but aside from that, it's interesting music.
love this, maybe even more than ornette's version!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OucWYBeBoo

Someone could throw in solitary confinement with all these records and I would die happy and spiritually fulfilled.

Yes, s.morris, exactly. You could pick any of these albums so far at random and it's likely they'll range from good to transcendent.

HATS notwithstanding.

I would wear all those hats tbh.

Me too. Now let's just sit back and wait for more insightful ~~~~ observations ~~~~

do you guys like this hat y/n
http://rlv.zcache.com/jazz_piano_hat-p148055578880129932qz14_400.jpg

your 'i would snuggle up with all these albums in an a-bomb shelter forever!!' comments def qualify as 'insightful'

the dick-size jokes too

~deep thoughts~

pretty sure I said that, deej, not Turangalila. You're raging.

How many jazz harp albums are in this list so far? It doesn't seem to me that it's dominating

ws lumping folks together
i have no problem, on an individual basis, w/ any of the albums in this list

Same with Sun Ra -- I just don't find as much to sink my teeth into as John Coltrane or Miles Davis.

not really feeling you on this, all 3 have insanely diverse catalogs.

― I can feel it in my spiritual hat (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, September 2, 2011 3:08 PM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Yeah I've heard the variety. Some Sun Ra is great, but overall I find the arkestra very clunky and clumsy and not very hard-swinging (in the broadest sense). I like the solo keyboard stuff on Solar Myth Approach a lot.

Does Alice Coltrane have any variety though? Everything I hear sounds pretty samey to me.

yall can talk about how much better jazz harpists are than mjq it doesnt make it fact

― D-40, Friday, September 2, 2011 7:59 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

And you can say the opposite and it doesn't make it fact either. How exciting for us all.

its a critique observing how when a certain type dominates, other things are excluded. i didnt even try to claim which ones are 'more correct,' just observing the biases inherent in the results. observing an imbalance or preference in the voting pool doesnt mean that i think my favs are somehow more 'valid'

― D-40, Friday, September 2, 2011 8:01 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I think the problem is that you veer between the two. Sometimes it is just an analysis - though I will say that from what I know of this list the 'dominating type' is at least partially constructed by the fact that we're talking about it the most, and then when something pops up that fits everybody points at it and goes 'look look we were right' - but at other times you've definitely gone on the attack about it.

For the record I am not pissed off about your contributions to this thread at all, but that doesn't mean I'm going to think you're right.

I make no claims towards insightfulness, that's why I've been a lurker for 8 years. I was just sayin' is all y'know.

Sometimes, plebes like us just like expressing enthusiasm for music and don't feel the need to prove some sociological point. That's what normal, irl, non-Aspies do on a day to day basis.

I guess Sun Ra and Alice Coltrane for me are a little like the jazz equivalent of backpacker rap -- like a lot of it is really good, but if you're like "THIS is the real shit, not that boring mainstream jazz" then I find you very suspect.

Does Alice Coltrane have any variety though? Everything I hear sounds pretty samey to me.

I only have three of her albums - Ptah, UC, and JIC - and they vary slightly (strings! oud!) in approach but in general no her catalog doesn't strike me as broad. love it tho.

Does Alice Coltrane have any variety though?
pretty big differences between the harp stuff, the orchestral stuff, the piano stuff, the organ stuff?

beyond a pretty basic 'insight' that i feel like ive reiterated enough upon provocation here, i dont think ive been implying that ive got some incrediblly insightful approach to jazz or something -- if anything, this list is making me want to go back & relisten to a bunch of stuff & see how my opinions have changed over the years -- but i only brought up a lack of insight in response to the accusation from someone who was basically resorting to personal attacks so w/e

THIS is the real shit, not that boring mainstream jazz"

don't think anybody is saying this really. except for maybe when turangalila said she liked Alice more than John.

Yeah it was pretty much directed at him Shakey.

And I wasn't saying that, either. I adore John. I just prefer Alice's aesthetic.

That's what normal, irl, non-Aspies do on a day to day basis.

Yeah, but they also don't run top 250 album count-downs.

or her (xpost)

guys im enjoying the debate/arguing it's fun so please continue but please quit the personal attacks, k?

now the TOP TEN

10 Herbie Hancock - Mwandishi (1970) 2774 Points, 20 votes, One #1
http://www.eximagen.es/image.php?id=5092_4B292F53
http://open.spotify.com/album/2mqMMupKZi5wBf7bXiqDR5

Sometimes, plebes like us just like expressing enthusiasm for music and don't feel the need to prove some sociological point. That's what normal, irl, non-Aspies do on a day to day basis.

― The Not Liking Radiohead Awards (Turangalila), Friday, September 2, 2011 2:15 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

how does your pt about how i probably dont like jazz harpists because they have vaginas fit into the aspie -> plebe spectrum

That's what normal, irl, non-Aspies do on a day to day basis.

Yeah, but they also don't run top 250 album count-downs.

― _Rudipherous_,

and my 2nd previous post especially goes for you

I haven't listened to Alice Coltrane in that much depth (though I think I've heard most of her albums at least a couple times, some much more than that) but I divide her work between accessible/semi-mellow-spiritual and apocalyptic freakout.

I guess Sun Ra and Alice Coltrane for me are a little like the jazz equivalent of backpacker rap -- like a lot of it is really good, but if you're like "THIS is the real shit, not that boring mainstream jazz" then I find you very suspect.

WHY?

This is what I have never understood. WHY WHY WHY? What the fuck grounds do you have for saying this shit? So if someone likes 'record collector' or 'nerdy' stuff more than mainstream stuff they are immediately looked at with scorn? WTF? It's one thing to say that it is a good thing to have a handle on the history of genre, another to say that you are "suspect" (FFS) for preferring a certain style.

I mean, I hold my hands up. I'm a record collector. And I'm a nerd. So fucking sue me.

D-40, Oh, because I do genuinely feel if Alice had a penis people wouldn't give her shit. Brilliant John, lesser Alice. But I don't want to derail this thread any more. Go on.

I mean, I hold my hands up. I'm a record collector. And I'm a nerd. So fucking sue me.

"heretic I cast thee out" etc

and my 2nd previous post especially goes for you

That was not a personal attack! I think the point is just the often-stated one that ILM is inherently a bit of an "aspie" place to begin with and anyone posting on this thread is probably implicated in that.

what do u think of mary lou williams

Oh, because I do genuinely feel if Alice had a penis people wouldn't give her shit.

John Coltrane coming out as gay def would have been interesting in the jazz world

imo shes >>> alice coltrane but xp

never heard that herbie. is it more em isles or more hh fusion? it is placed firmly in the middle of 'herbie i love' and 'rmde'

I mean, I hold my hands up. I'm a record collector. And I'm a nerd. So fucking sue me.

― emil.y, Friday, September 2, 2011 2:21 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

I mean, I hold my hands up. I'm a record collector. And I'm a nerd. So fucking sue me

yes OWN THAT SHIT

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF Herbie Hancock - Mwandishi  

XP
thanks sam!

IDK, I've just never met anyone who actually had a very good handle on jazz and preferred sun ra to other jazz. Also especially with Sun Ra so much of the enjoyment is about the total package of his narrative, persona, costumes, craziness etc. and all that stuff just seems like it doesn't have much to do with the music being jazz, which is why I couldn't help but be a little rankled if Sun Ra topped a jazz poll. All that stuff is great, but to me it's more like performance art or something.

how does your pt about how i probably dont like jazz harpists because they have vaginas fit into the aspie -> plebe spectrum

Probably goes back to discourse elevating penis size speculation.