It's About Time: Beach Boys Poll Results

My point was, the popularity and cultural sway of 20+ year old music can dramatically rise or fall depending on their quality, elevating music that didn't sell when it was made, and letting go once-popular acts that don't hold up well.

Sure, but I don't really see what that has to do with my argument that the BBs stopped having hits because they stopped writing hits, and not because they fell out of fashion for extramusical reasons.

if "Caroline, No" had been a bigger hit, Capitol would have released Pet Sounds as a Brian solo album.
huh that's interesting. they would've just used the versions with all brian vocals?

I can't find a citation now, but I'd assume the Brain songs would have been retained along with the instrumentals (+ "Trombone Dixie"). I dunno about the other vocals since Brian has said they were tailored for Carl & Mike.

Yeah not really buying that story.

the BBs stopped having hits because they stopped writing hits

this is what's called a tautology

sounds like it, but it's really not

Sure, but I don't really see what that has to do with my argument that the BBs stopped having hits because they stopped writing hits, and not because they fell out of fashion for extramusical reasons.

> the BBs stopped having hits because they stopped writing hits

this is what's called a tautology

"The late-60s material simply isn't as strong or catchy as their pre-'67 hits"

disagree about the strong part, obv not as catchy which is why they stopped having hits. the songs hold up for reasons other than being hooks delivery vehicles

"Jimi Hendrix wasn't super-popular at the time"

maybe, but he was certainly representative of the change in taste that was going on

> the songs hold up for reasons other than being hooks delivery vehicle

Of course. But we're talking here about why they weren't hits at the time, not about how well it holds up. A song without a strong hook isn't as likely to become a hit, because it's less catchy when heard on the radio the first time or two. There tons of good music that wouldn't make good pop songs, or at least likely chartbusting hits. Obviously lots of us, myself included, like the '67 to '73 stuff. But is there anything from that period that's as strong, especially as a pop song, as "California Girls" or "I Get Around" that just is instantaneously memorable, and yet still likeable after many listens, which is what great pop songs need to be? As music, I like Smiley Smile and Friends more than their early surf hits, but as a pop song, nothing from them is as strong as "Fun, Fun, Fun". BTW, only one of my top 10 poll entries was a big hit, so clearly I understand that non-hits can still be more enjoyable to listen to, even if they're not as catchy or hook-ridden.

Hendrix was representative of the change in musical tastes in the late '60s, but the notion that hipsters taking his snub of the Beach Boys as a cue to dismiss the band were a main reason their popularity dropped off doesn't fly. And besides, what's wrong with a psychedelic barbershop quartet? Sounds cool to me!

I never did buy the they-suddenly-became-uncool argument.

yeah, I mean as you pointed out, Gary Pucket and the Union Gap! It's not like it was impossible for totally uncool artists to have big hits in the late '60s/early '70s.

What about a band like Paul Revere & The Raiders? They had a hit with the anti-drug song "Kicks" in 1966. David Crosby "was upset with the success of the song, particularly as it came just after his group's "Eight Miles High" had been boycotted by many U.S. radio stations. Crosby described "Kicks" as "a dumb anti-drug song" that took "a falsely adopted stance." and incidentally "Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson singled out "Kicks" as one his favorites of Terry Melcher's works."

But then they came back and had an even bigger hit in '71 with Indian Reservation.

My own two cents is that public perception has nothing to do with it. If a song is catchy enough, strikes the right note with the public, whatsoever, and gets its chance, then it really trumps everything. Arrangements, lyrics, lifestyle of the performer, etc.

I think there's an easy narrative about the Beach Boys and the late 60s that pop psychologists have long described. But the fact is if they had come out with something on the level of "I Get Around" in 1968, people probably would've bought the shit out of it.

Arrangements, lyrics, lifestyle of the performer, etc., none of that matters so long as the song hits that indefinable spot.

"the notion that hipsters taking his snub of the Beach Boys as a cue to dismiss the band were a main reason their popularity dropped off doesn't fly"

i don't think anyone is doing that, or did that, more like hendrix was reflecting something that was already "in the air"

"especially as a pop song"

yeah, this is the problem, some people on this thread don't really find that so interesting, especially 45+ years later. just reacting to the song and how it moves me, which can be because of a memorable hook, or not

i mean, it's cool that other people do care, but it seems like there was some value judgment going on because they stopped having big hits

I don't recall ever getting the impression that anyone was making a value judgment over the fact that they stopped having hits. The argument, as I read it, was more to do with the idea that they didn't really write blockbusters post-Smile, whereas they did beforehand. That perspective might involve a value judgment, but it certainly doesn't have to be an absolute one.

It wouldn't be a Beach Boys thread without a pie fight.

Also general request - can we consider doing these threads without posting videos in the future? Missed today's discussion and downloading the whole thread was nearly impossible. That means it's going to be very difficult for someone to actually read much of the thread in the future.

tim go to preferences and turn images off - soooo much easier to read ilx that way

Oh fantastic - thanks, Kevin.

I also believe that Smile in its original form would have bombed -- there was nothing the Beach Boys could have released in the USA that would have superceded what was in the air.

I've always thought that Smile could have done it. Not that it would have superceded what was in the air, but that its presence would have been this alternate beacon, the ramifications of which are hard to speculate about.

The audience didn't abandon them because they didn't stick to their original bandwagon. They abandoned them because they stopped making great songs.

^^ value judgment over the fact that they stopped having hits.

some classic trolling here

15-11 is quite a run. I guess this means no "When I Grow Up" or "Little Saint Nick".

Honestly don't know if "Here Today" is going to make the top ten or if it didn't make the top 69 at all. I voted for it.

I didn't vote for it, but it popped into my head at some point over the past couple of days reading this thread and I thought "shit, why didn't I vote for that?"

Seriously doubt there are any surprises left aside from the order.

I just made a list of 9 songs that I'm pretty sure will make the top 10 - Here Today and When I Grow Up To Be A Man are both good candidates for the 10th spot. Also, I voted for Girls On The Beach - I thought that would have made the list, but I'm doubting it will hit top 10.

Scratch that - there are 10 shoo-ins, I reckon.

^^ value judgment over the fact that they stopped having hits.

yeah, I think for me there are two separate things going on here. The first is that I was trying to argue that they didn't have any later hits because their later songs weren't hit material. That doesn't necessarily have to mean that it's not still great music. It could just be great music that happens to be uncommercial in some way.

But personally, I also feel that there was a big drop off in quality, and that their later stuff was not great very often. And even the better stuff from later albums pales in comparison to the earlier peaks of their career and I personally can't help but make that comparison.

So I was conflating those two things when I said "they stopped making great songs." But alongside my personal and obviously subjective feeling that their work took a big hit in quality, I think there's a way that you can look at least somewhat objectively at their later material and say that they weren't exactly writing hit material anymore. The subject matter got weirder, the songs were often somewhat depressing, some of the songs have weird chord changes that seem kind of aimless and unfinished at times, the recording quality got worse, they stopped using the greatest session players in the greatest studios, the arrangements were rarely as wildly creative as some of their earlier work, etc.

And again, there doesn't have to be a value judgement implied by the fact that the work got less commercial. All of the stuff I wrote above could equally apply to an album like Oar or There's A Riot Goin On, both of which I think are brilliant. But personally, in the Beach Boys case, the shift in focus doesn't really work for me and so I am placing a value judgement on it. I'm not saying that the later stuff was obviously worse because they didn't have chart hits. I'm saying they didn't have chart hits with the later stuff because it was less commercial, and I personally happen to also feel that it was generally worse.

I'm old enough to remember that Good Vibrations was an enormous, mind-blowing hit, but that the follow-up single, Heroes and Villains, turned a lot of people off at the time - the lyrics were confusing, the chromatic melody was annoying, it was just too weird. Kind of the same effect that "Tusk" had on people who were really looking forward to Rumours Part 2. Other than "Do It Again", I can't recall any subsequent Beach Boys single getting significant AM airplay in my neck of the woods until the "Brian's Back" promo push in 76.

That's actually a diatonic melody! All stepwise motion down about an octave and a half.

Whoops! You're right of course. I was remembering it incorrectly in my head.

Even if they didn't have another God Only Knows or Good Vibrations in them post-1966, I think Smile would have been a logical step forward for their career esp given the context of an album-centric environment. Wilson's inability to recognize his more polished recordings of Our Prayer, Surf's Up, Cabinessence, Wonderful, Wind Chimes as timely singles was his and the Beach Boys downfall. The slow drip method of releasing these songs album by album is frustrating and what ultimately cost them the same luxuries that the Beatles, Stones, Bowie, etc. had (getting the audience to sign on to stylistic shifts). Smiley Smile has got to be the biggest career killing album this side of Metal Machine Music.

eh, heroes and villains is kind of a shit song. and imo none of those songs you mention would have been viable singles. unless we're talking b-sides, then yes. MAYBE you could have passed off surf's up as a second single, if there had been another "good vibrations" on the would-be Smile to precede it. again, heroes and villains is kind of a dud song, for all of the reasons that ρεμπετις, cited. realistically speaking, none of the tracks that would have showed up on Smile are anthemic or bright enough to have made it as potential singles. Smile is worthwhile in its own way; there are great ideas within, but it's more of a smoking with your friends late at night and discussing shit record than it is a hear it on the radio while you're driving home from work or sitting on the beach record.

in a sense, Look is the brightest, most energetic song from the Smile sessions, but it's a. an instrumental and b. reprises melody line from Good Vibrations, so it's not gonna qualify as a candidate for a single, either...

iow, mike love really was right-- bw, however unwittingly or not, truly was fucking with the formula...and as open to experimentation by pop groups as the era was, there is a huge difference between the radio-friendly hits that were crammed onto sgt. pepper's, and the experiments that largely comprised the smile tracks...

Oh, they were both right.

Brian should have been able to concentrate on doing "works of beauty" unencumbered by the demands of touring, hit-single-with-surf-references-only songwriting, and so on. Bring in the lads for vocals, and call the ensemble "Brian Wilson" or some such other.

Whereas Mike Love could go on and stick rigidly to the formula, until the seam was all used up.

I thought it ironic that "Almost Summer" has the line "We're growing up, little by little", I mean how old was he by then?

Interesting comparison re: career-killing albums, from a band that was often compared to the Beach Boys in their early days, released in 1968:

4 Seasons - Genuine Imitation Life Gazette

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiHfkCkQGg0

And not because of underproduction! (either the music or the packaging, which had me wondering the first time I opened it if there was actually a record buried in there somewhere amidst all the foldouts and newspapers)

This was their first attempt to make a cohesive album-length statement - their previous LPs were rotating collections built around their most recent singles, updated or replaced frequently to feature their latest hits, ususual titled something like (Latest Hit) And 11 Other Great Songs, that make even the erratic early Beach Boys albums look like a stable lot by comparison.

I'd love to get reactions from this group to the album-opening track above....

I've always been interested in Wind Chimes. It's like Brian's own "Doors of Perception Heaven and Hell" - describing these inanimate objects in his room with amplified meaning and clarity. It's fitting that he recorded two versions - a peaceful, relaxed, breezy version and a claustrophobic, unsettling one - kind of reflects the dichotomous qualities of the psychedelic trip. Who else was doing acid songs that reflected the paranoid side of psychedelia?

xp forgot to mention this brought an abrupt halt to a string of thirteen US top-10 hits - the highest-charting single from the four released from the album reached #75; they wouldn't see the top 40 again for another 6 years. I couldn't find chart info on the album itself (it doesn't have a Wikipedia page, what am I supposed to do?)

Who else was doing acid songs that reflected the paranoid side of psychedelia?

Who else was doing acid songs that didn't reflect the paranoid side of psychedelia?

Even "My White Bicycle" has an "oh noooo the police are LOOKING at meeeee" line.

Sgt Pepper has a dearth of terrifying moments.

Wind Chimes (Smiley Smile) version is perfect in its uneasiness though - it only just manages to sound harmonic and often breaks down from chord to chord - like being afraid to move one moment and then calmer and then ERrrrrk!

Dunno, "Good Morning" has a whole procession of animals chasing Lennon....

...in the order they would eat each other. Maybe the most lol moment on the whole album.

Plus Good Morning isn't exactly musically frightening, not like Wind Chimes. Yeah sure, I bet there are countless examples of good acid-paranoia songs, but Wind Chimes is the only one I can think of that reflects the mood of "just being kinda spooked by old trinkets in the attic" kind of thing.

I like that the chicken ate the lot, it seems...