The King Crimson studio album poll

Pretty sure the Mincer is as such due to a failure in the recording process--the Law of Maximum Distress Pt 1 & 2 surround it, imperfectly. I'm working on Frankensteining them back together.

really think Lizard is unfairly hated on. "Cirkus" is one of my favorite KC tracks. and of course the Jon Anderson sung finale...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjkSmV_Gtw0

They really should have indexed the Jon Anderson part of "Lizard" serperately. It would make such an awesome single by itself!

frogbs, naive teen idol, check yr webmail

Thanks a bunch man. I'd really love to get into that album again. All my real memories of it were when I bought the actual LP which was slightly warped and blasted it out of this massive wooden radio deck that I got for free. Somehow the CD never did it for me.

Listening to Volume 4 of those sets - first song is "Sleepless" and I could just think "oh yeah, that happened", then remembered how incredible the Absent Lovers live album was. This band was good but it never should have been called "King Crimson"

As I'm sure you know, Fripp intended to call the band Discipline, but was talked out of it by Belew. Regardless I suspect it had more to do ultimately with Brand Recognition, same as calling that Jakzyk/Collins/Fripp mess "a King Crimson Projekct"--no one would buy it otherwise. With that newest thing, I hope no one would buy it in either case.

You know though I've been listening alot to the 2000 band, and though I've repeated ad nauseum my misgivings about that group, they make the most legitimate claim to being the true successor to the 73-74 group. Their improvs are, at their best, thrilling and scary, and present a Crim venturing into strange territory.

thrilling, scary, and strange -- tell me more!

same as calling that Jakzyk/Collins/Fripp mess "a King Crimson Projekct"--no one would buy it otherwise

Totally agreed on the 2000 Crim, as I said before that Heavy ConstruKction live set is such a beast, definitely their best improv since the early days. For whatever reason the double trio improv always struck me as very aimless, with everyone afraid to step on anyone elses toes, but the 4-piece sans Levin and Beuford was great. Sadly they just could not write songs at all and that's why they get a bad rap. I mean look at the album - take out the joke tunes and the retreads of old material and you're left with "Into the Frying Pan" (which is great though)

I mentioned it on a different Crimson thread, but while I totally agree the double trio was aimless, the version I saw most recently with two drums, two guitars but just one bass - Pat, drummer dude from Porcupine Tree, Levin, Fripp, Belew - was totally on fire.

hxxp://avaxhome.ws/music/rock/progressive_rock/1820588.html (incl. a not exactly egal-lay download)

I don't think anyone bought it anyway. I mean compare this with the hype for the new Yes album, or even the lastest by Van der Graaf Generator. I would imagine if the album was any good that people would be interested.

Well, okay, let me clarify by saying I feel that way about the double trio in 1994 and 1995. The first disc of the VROOOM VROOOM live set is from 1996 and it rules, like they found out how to stop getting in each others way and just bash out all the tunes. And then they split. Oh well

Did anyone ever read Bruford's autobiography? I always got the impression that he just got tired of working with RF and took off.
Agreed that VROOOM DEUCE is great--compare the ferocity of the performances to the B'BOOOM set at the start of the tour. It's really a shame they didn't make anything worthwhile in the studio out of it.

I'm sure that Fripp is a big jerk. But for some reason I was under the impression that Buford was a jerk, too. Maybe incompatible jerks?

I don't know if Fripp is a jerk so much as he is anal-retentive.
I just pictured Captain Beefheart being strict with the people he worked with. Could it be that Fripp is no different than Beefheart?

That's probably more accurate.

I always got the impression that he just got tired of working with RF and took off.

I think it wasn't so much Fripp but rock music in general he got tired of. He just wanted to play jazz.

bruford's comments on the ABWH and Union tour that are on wiki (which are from his autobiography I think) are kind of amusing.

From Bruford's FAQ:

Why are you no longer playing with King Crimson?
First, because I can think of nothing to add, and second, because I have other things to do. Pat Mastelotto has the gig well covered. As a member of the band for some 25 years off and on, I found the experience challenging, innovative, and exasperating in equal measure, and I wouldn't have changed a moment of it. I learned lots about music, and my place in it, over the years, and was lucky enough to participate in some concerts that neither audience nor musicians will be likely to forget in a hurry. Somewhere around the turn of the millennium it became obvious to me that I had achieved all I was likely to achieve in the mighty Crim.

I have also been keen to get back to the vernacular of jazz, not as a tourist, but as a full time committed member, and the second edition of Earthworks opened up full throttle in 1998. To make progress in the one demanded renouncing the other.

I can respect that.

Always love Bruford's comment about when he first joined KC, that it was the only band that when he joined he was given a reading list.

whoah I missed this revive

please email me, Sparkle Motion!

((me too))

No probs dudes, anyone else who wants a further education in advanced lizard studies let me know

Did any of these anniversary reissues include liner notes? My feeling is that Fripp's own stories about the making of these records (based on Steve Wilson's experience w Fripp in the studio remixing them) would be gold.

I just pulled out my copy of the Young Person's Guide booklet--which is a compendium of reviews, articles and Fripp diary entries from 69-76 (the only item I've ever stolen -- I stuck the booklet in a copy of Red I was going to buy)--and was just stunned at what an exciting and hilarious read it is.

I've only read the liner notes to Red. It was informative, but didn't contain any personal reminiscences that I can remember.

I just pulled out my copy of the Young Person's Guide booklet--which is a compendium of reviews, articles and Fripp diary entries from 69-76 (the only item I've ever stolen -- I stuck the booklet in a copy of Red I was going to buy)--and was just stunned at what an exciting and hilarious read it is

Yes, that was the first KC album I ever bought and I love that booklet as well. I like the way he answers back to negative reviews. IIRC the same text (but not the photos) was used for the booklet in the Great Deceiver box set.

a lot of the 30th anniversary discs contained that stuff, a lot of the newspaper articles were pretty entertaining.

I remember one that claimed that Earthbound was their best work, wtf

They had the clippings of the reviews and stuff but I don't think they had Fripp's diary or his acerbic comments. I do remember one 1974 review in particular saying that the then just released Red was the best KC album. In retrospect he was OTM, as confirmed by this poll!

Maybe I'm thinking of the live albums that had some commentary on it? I remember getting The Night Watch which had a few quotes from the band members saying that they didn't feel they were "on" that night, and yet they used the performance for S&BB (plus that live album) anyway. What kind of stuff does Fripp end up saying?

One example that sticks in my mind is some lengthy rant of a negative review (most of the 69-74 reviews were actually very positive) that included a line about "the well known break in 'Schizoid Man' relied heavily on studio gimcrackery." There were so many things Fripp could have picked up on in that review but he just drily notes underneath the review: "The 'well-known break in 'Schizoid Man' did not rely heavily on 'studio gimcrackery'" and leaves it at that. There's tons of stuff like that.

Now I'm starting to get interested in King Crimson trivia - I used to really love this website FAQ:
http://www.elephant-talk.com/wiki/Frequently_Asked_Questions

One thing that I always thought was interesting is that Giles, Giles & Fripp were TRYING to write a hit single, and actually gave it several good attempts - if any one of them had caught on, that would have essentially killed Crimson.

"The 'well-known break in 'Schizoid Man' did not rely heavily on 'studio gimcrackery'"

Yeah, the whole thing was done in one take, which is pretty amazing

Reading through this FAQ again is pretty entertaining. Apparently Elton John was booked to sing on Poseidon, and Fripp was originally offered the lead guitar role in Yes over Steve Howe.

Actually now I come to think of it, it was probably the Frame by Frame box set that reproduced the Young Persons booklet. The Great Deceiver box had a different booklet, probably with another load of archival material.

Yeah that ET stuff is good. There used to be an email list in the 90s which I subscribed to. Fripp made the odd intervention there. The DGM forum is OK but not the same.

I read a ton of ET in the mid 90s, I think the fervent devotion of the fans was good (it led to the Collectors Club) and bad (pandering from the band, resulting in songs like Prozakc blues).

I would love to see some PDFs of the box set booklets... I remember my local library had the Frame by Frame box (and the Great Deceiver now that I think about it) and that booklet was amazing, just jam packed full of press clippings, photos, and a massive fold out band family tree.

I think about stuff like that occasionally. It would take either the prepress files from whoever designed the booklets, or somebody cutting/breaking the binding on a copy so they could scan it. Back when I was selling my CDs, sometimes when a disc sold that had a really interesting booklet, I'd scan it quickly before shipping. Got a lot of scans from various late-90s Chess reissues, some Woody Guthrie Asch Recordings...keep meaning to OCR them but haven't bothered yet. I've kept the book in the Great Deceiver box in nice shape, don't want to break it down in case I ever get a decent offer for the set.

I kind of get the impression that Fripp's a guy who compulsively saves everything ever written about him for "posterity". I guess for better or worse at least his OCD allows us to have like 150 CDs of live material should we ever want it.

Yeah I just dug out my Frame by Frame box, the booklet is indeed the Young Persons booklet updated to 1991. And very nice it is too.

I bet that's a great read. What is in the Great Deceiver notes? I'm contemplating forking over some money for it.

Looking back over that YPG booklet really took me back -- and made me think about that ageless tension in King Crimson between the music and the words. I find myself periodically getting absorbed in the first four records -- and oddly enough, the Sinfield lyrics are usually a big reason why. I saw some website years ago that "interpreted" them—explaining all the literary references and so forth—and while they're florid to a ludicrous degree, their sense of unbridled ambition is kind of refreshing in today's day and age -- kind of charmingly quaint. Don't get me wrong -- there are definitely some clunkers ("The Letter" is a big one) -- and several go well beyond outlandish to the point of confused ("Lizard"). Still, I'm usually surprised at how well the lyrics fit with the music and how evocative their imagery is. Quite frankly, they make me think far more than the author of ELP's "Taste of My Love" has any real right to.

And while I'm no vinyl purist by any means, I would add that the gatefolds are critical to the overall listening experience -- for the first three records anyway. While mine got waterdamaged years ago, I particularly loved listening along to my big glossy copy of Poseidon.

I know this is unrelated, but I asked this in a thread already, did you ever wind up listening to Love Beach??

Didn't somebody do a "Taste of My Love" poll? That's the only track I've heard, and it is truly hilarious.

(xpost) Were the British LP jackets glossy? Poseidon in the US was soft and fuzzy-ish.

Aw man, I love "The Letters", but yeah, totally florid.

I'm flicking through the Great Deceiver one now. It's not quite as nice as the FbF one because it's longbox shaped.

Let's see now. There's an essay by Fripp about playing live. Extracts from his diary in 1974. A bunch of liner notes by various critics. Lots of published reviews of FbF. And a sprinkling of live photos, which are mostly a bit underwhelming.

On the lyrics, I've always found Richard Palmer-James's to be more interesting than Sinfield's. That yearning, lyrical quality suits Wetton's voice well.

I know this is unrelated, but I asked this in a thread already, did you ever wind up listening to Love Beach??

Of course not.

So...that decscription (very appreciated, btw) doesn't make it sound like The Great Deceiver is necessarily worth buying for the book alone -- right, anagram?

I think all his liner notes have been a great teaser for the book he's finishing up now. I wonder what the ratio of bile to joy is going to be.

I shouldn't say "finishing up" -- "still in progress," rather.